[MD] Does the MOQ invalidate Subjectivity?

[Steve Peterson]

Hi Ham:


> "The [first thesis of the] MOQ says that Quality comes first,
> which produces ideas, which produce what we know as matter.
> The scientific community that has produced Complementarity
> almost invariably presumes that matter comes first and produces
> ideas.  However, as if to further the confusion, the [second thesis
> of the] MOQ says that the idea that matter comes first is a high
> quality idea!" [LILA'S CHILD, Annotation 67]
>
> So, Quality comes first which produces your idea that the subject
> comes first.

Ham:

A metaphysical ontology should not have to be limited by the time precept,
so I don't like the chicken-and-egg paradigm of which came first.  Let's
stick to primary and secondary, which infers "source" and "derivative",
respectively.

Steve:
Yes, that's what I mean.

Here Paul talked about the fundamental difference between your philosophy and Pirsig's :

"The difference between what you are saying and the MOQ is really quite subtle. You seem to be making an assumption that an individual "agent" exists that makes these value judgements and is therefore logically not the value judgements themselves.

The MOQ is saying that value assertions create the individual in that
they *are* the individual. So it isn't saying that individuals don't
exist and that there is just this big collective mass of static
patterns, which is the conclusion you are drawing."

I don't think there is a way to resolve this issue. We can argue over which position is more empirical, but why make that the standard by which to judge which is better? The bottom line is that you don't want to follow where the MOQ leads. I don't think you are going to convince anyone here of problems in the MOQ that your philosphy resolves. You simply don't like to think in terms of Quality, and you find quality in the term Essence that I don't see.

Regards,
Steve





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