[MD] Does the MOQ invalidate Subjectivity?

[Steve Peterson]

Hi Ham,

Ham said:
I believe I've been quite straightfoward in asking the main question of this discussion, and in trying to clarify our respective positions.  But I'm still not clear as to whether, if we take Matt's suggestion and "run as far away as possible from the [SOM] distinction'," we are thereby invalidating subjectivity.

Steve:
I think what Matt means is that as a dichotomy subjective/objective knowledge distinctions don’t work. You would need a perspective-less prospective to decide what’s what, otherwise it’s just someone’s perspective.


Ham:
Now if a reality concept predictated on proprietary awareness is
incompatible with the MoQ thesis, just tell me so, and I'll desist from trying to make my case.  

Steve:
The MOQ says that experience comes first, and out of experience come knowledge of a subject and object.  You want to say that the subject and object had to have been there all along for the experience to have happened. But without having any experience how would the subject know it exists? So as you say there is a chicken and the egg issue. That’s why RMP preferred to take a different first cut of experience into static and dynamic.

I don’t think your thesis can be compatible because the MOQ slices in such a way that the subject you want to focus on is derivative rather than primary.


Ham:
Otherwise, please understand that when references
are made to Consciousness, Sensibility, Perception, Intellect, Ideas,
Morality, or Value, they will be recognized as "subjective" from my
perspective.

Steve:
If everything is recognized as being subjective then the subjective/objective knowledge distinction is irrelevant. These are the sort of terms that create one another like inside and outside. If everything is subjective then there is no such thing as subjectivity, so it sounds like for you there is no such thing.

Pirsig says it works to keep the terms if you refer to inorganic and biological patterns as objective and social and intellectual patterns as subjective.

Regards,
Steve


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