[MD] Social Ants?

[Case]

> [Case]
> What Pirsig purports to have developed is a METAPHYSICS of Quality.
> Warping the MoQ into a purely political or moral philosophy strikes me
> as flat out wrong.

[Pirsig]
"Because Quality is morality. Make no mistake about it. They're 
identical. And if Quality is the primary reality of the world then that 
means morality is also the primary reality of the world. The world is 
primarily a moral order."

Pirsig couldn't make it any clearer. The MOQ is a moral philosophy. 
Case is flat out wrong, making the rest of his post trying to connect 
the MOQ to his value-free materialist worldview irrelevant.

[Case]
Again you completely miss the point. I was highly incensed that yesterday's
posts in this thread were nothing more than the same old same old fiddle
faddle. What I said was that Pirsig's metaphysics is about so much more than
mere morality. I further maintain that until you have understood how this
metaphysics applies at the lower levels all this talk about morals and
politics is just whizzing in the wind.

If you wanted to remind me that Pirsig's interest is in morality you need
have looked no further than the title page. "LILA An Inquiry Into Morals".
But this only serves to show that he is doing nothing more than westernizing
Lao Tzu. The title of Lao Tzu's work is the Tao Te Ching. This translates as
The Book of the Way of Virtue. The first half of the book is about The Way.
The second half is about Virtue or how to live and how to govern. Pirsig's
two books not only restate Lao Tzu, they follow his pattern.

No where did I say that this was a strictly materialist metaphysics any more
than do Pirsig or Lao Tzu. I said that it is easier to see the patterns of
harmony and value in the material world because in that realm we have some
basis for agreement. It is the conceptual space where individuals can
compare their perceptions and arrive at consensus.

What I did say is that Pirsig's metaphysics allows us to see and speak
clearly about this property of self similarity across scale. It provides us
with tools of thought that work at any degree of resolution in the physical
or mental worlds. As manifest in physical, biological, social and
intellectual patterns of value, this structure arises spontaneously in
nature. It is readily visible in the materialist world and easily
appreciable to mystics. 

For example, whether you believe that consciousness, or mental events,
result from materialist causes in the brain or that the brain is simply a
mirror of extracorporeal phenomena manifest as matter, the structure is the
same. It is a bifurcated branching pattern of matter and intellect whose
structure reflects the relative strengths of the relationships contained and
the probabilities of the various interactions that can occur.

I find almost all your moral and political posturing trite because you
somehow think that while the MoQ levels arise from each other they are
disconnected. Even if they were disconnected in the ways you claim the
Metaphysics would say that the same properties are at work. The same sorts
of interactions occur across levels and the same patterns of value,
(structure) occur.

As a result I don't believe you can properly apply the MoQ to biology until
you get a pretty good grasp on how it functions physically. You can not
appreciate it socially until you see how it works in biology, and so on. But
so that I am not misunderstood yet again let me back track and say that
before the physical layer there is the Tao, The Way, Quality from whose
principle all arises.

But what Platt is looking for is a system of thought that will let him carve
to world into Good and Bad. Or more accurately to say that We are Good and
They are Bad. I think Pirsig is pretty clear that you will not find that in
the MoQ. If that is what you want I suggest Strauss.

All you are going to find in the MoQ is more relativism. Because, as
patterns of value slide about in their fractal structure seeking harmony,
sometimes they adjust one way and sometimes another. To take a good old
fashion example from ZMM when you are adjusting a carburetor sometimes the
mixture is too rich and sometimes too lean. Unless you have a feel for the
harmony of the engine you will never get it right. Making the mixture more
dynamic is only "good" if the engine is sluggish. 


[Platt]
Case sets himself up as moral judge and jury after assuring us his 
interpretation of the MOQ is the only correct one. Did someone say the 
ego is an illusion?

[Case]
I do offer up my opinion on occasion. I also lurk silently in the background
for months. Like everyone else I am Yin and Yang. Yesterday I was pissed
off.

[Platt]
If you don't appreciate what Case claims the MOQ "really offers" shame 
on you. Case plays the guilt card while denying the MOQ is about 
morality. The irony I will leave to the reader. 

[Case]
I am also a father. We play the guilt card when we think it is appropriate.
It works better when our children are capable of shame. But if what you are
saying is that sometimes we should just leave it in our hand. Well, maybe...