[MD] Say what?

[ian glendinning]

Just don't see the argument ...

There are "giants" AND there are individuals.
Both aspects of consciousnessness and intellect are emergent
realities, neither is exclusive of the other.What is there to argue
about, unless pigeonholing people in opposing boxes for some reason.

Oh, for the excluded middle. I can dream.
Ian

On 6/28/06, Ham Priday <hampday1 at verizon.net> wrote:
>
> Hello Sojosoniq --
>
> Referring to my Rand quote, you said:
>
> > Uh.. say what?  How does this explain mobs and "collective hysteria"?  Or
> > Jungian psychological concepts?
> >
> > Pirsig himself describes many facets of "The Giant" yet it seems everyone
> > here dismisses the concept, acting as if it is a given that "societies"
> are
> > completely subservient to individuals making discrete decisions and that
> > there is no thinking organism larger than a single human being. It seems
> to
> > me that the evidence is actually to the contrary - that groups of people
> > (societies) DO act and behave as if they were a larger organism composed
> of
> > individual humans, the society itself.
>
> We haven't been introduced, and I don't know how familiar you are with
> Pirsig, but you should fit right in.  Your assessment of the MD group's
> position on the collective is so wrong it's laughable.  Most of the
> participants here regard Intellect as the fourth level of DQ, don't know
> what to do with consciousness, and have little use for individualism.  I was
> appalled by the 'Giant' metaphor when I read it, and had to be restrained by
> Pirsig loyalists who assured me that the author didn't really mean to
> dismiss the individual.  Indeed, I'm probably the single voice in this forum
> arguing for acknowledgement of proprietary (individual) awareness.
>
> To answer your question, hysteria and mob behavior are precisely what
> happens when humans stop thinking as individuals.  Typically, gangs and mobs
> are comprised of uneducated or ignorant people who see the "crowd" as their
> only way to gain power.  This is primitive behavior, organized for the sheer
> mass of it, as opposed to rational choices based on value judgments made by
> informed individuals.
>
> > I havent heard anyone argue that individual muscle cells singularly all
> > decide individually to move together to effect a person's arm
> contracting -
> > on the contrary, it seems to be a given that the individual is moving
> > his/her arm.
>
> You certainly haven't, and you won't.  Tissue cells don't make decisions.
> They work in an integrated way as determined by their biological function
> and the neuro-muscular system.  The arm doesn't make decisions either.  As
> Ayn Rand said in my quote, only individuals have ideas and make decisions.
>
> > The only way I can explain this perspective is that all (or most) of the
> > people on this email list think all actions originate with the individual,
> > sort of a Copernican "I"-centered viewpoint.  Members of other societies,
> > (including the "primitive" people so often sneered at on this list)
> > including those from medieval Europe, would vehemently disagree.
>
> Possibly you have us confused with some other Internet mailing list.  I
> suggest that you review the MD archives before criticizing a perspective
> which this society doesn't endorse.
>
> --Ham
>
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