[MD] Barbarians & Hippies

[Platt Holden]

Hi Ant:

[Ant]  
> You have heard an answer to your question (on February 1st) of what the
> “vague amorphous soup of sentiments” being cheered for in the Sixties
> were - at least regarding Hippies.   Unfortunately, you appear to have
> been suffering from a bad case of “Pox-news” again (where the patient
> forgets things and turns a nauseating shade of blue).  However, luckily
> for you, the MOQ doctor is here at hand to treat your symptoms...

The MOQ doctor has yet to come up with a meaningful diagnosis. :-)

> Firstly, to remind you, in his text “Hippies From A to Z”, Skip Stone,
> the Webmaster and Editor of Hippy.com, states that being a hippy is
> primarily concerned with the MOQ emphasis on freedom and an openness to
> new experiences:

"Freedom and openness to new experiences" is a typical amorphous 
sentiment. 

> “My view is that being a hippie is a matter of accepting a universal
> belief system that transcends the social, political, and moral norms of
> any established structure, be it a class, church, or government.  Each
> of these powerful institutions has its own agenda for controlling, even
> enslaving people. Each has to defend itself when threatened by real or
> imagined enemies. So we see though history a parade of endless conflicts
> with country vs. country, religion vs. religion, class vs. class. After
> millennia of war and strife, in which uncounted millions have suffered,
> we have yet to rise above our petty differences.”

Hippies are anti-government? How come most avowed hippies like you are 
socialists at heart?

> “The way of the hippie is antithetical to all repressive hierarchical
> power structures since these are adverse to the hippie goals of peace,
> love and freedom.

"Peace, love and freedom." More amorphous sentiments. How about 
"motherhood and apple pie?"

>This is why the ‘Establishment’ feared and suppressed
> the hippie movement of the ‘60s, as it was a revolution against the
> established order. It is also the reason why the hippies were unable to
> unite and overthrow the system since they refused to build their own
> power base. Hippies don’t impose their beliefs on others. Instead,
> hippies seek to change the world through reason and by living what they
> believe.”

No doubt hippies want to change the world, but what I'm trying to find 
out is specifically what hippies have in mind. The answers that have 
been given so far are amorphous sentiments like peace, freedom and 
openness. 

> “To be a hippie you must believe in peace as the way to resolve
> differences among peoples, ideologies and religions. The way to peace is
> through love and tolerance. Loving means accepting others as they are,
> giving them freedom to express themselves and not judging them based on
> appearances. This is the core of the hippie philosophy.”

Ok, add to that amorphous soup "peace, love and tolerance." Peace at 
what price? Are hippies willing to give up their freedom for peace? 
 
> Above all, note the following:
> 
> “The hippy movement erected signposts for all to see. Some warn us of
> impending danger, others direct us towards richer, more fulfilling
> lives, but most show us the road to freedom. Freedom is the paramount
> virtue in this system. Freedom to do as one pleases, go where the flow
> takes you, and to be open to new experiences. This engenders an attitude
> that allows for maximum personal growth.”
> 
> (http://hippy.com/hippyway.htm)

Add to the amorphous soup, "go with the flow."

> What the MOQ (which, btw, was written by an 1950s hippie, turned 1960s
> intellectual) adds to traditional (SOM) hippy philosophy (concerning
> freedom and an openness to new experiences) is a recognition that if the
> social patterns aren’t given due recognition and looked after to some
> extent, the intellectual (as with a woodman cutting the wrong side of a
> tree branch he’s sitting on) will find the underlying support required
> for his intellectual patterns disappearing.  And, in fact, that’s
> probably the central point of Chapter 24 (rather than just being an
> anti-intellectual or anti-hippy tirade as you falsely portray it):

Social patterns include government. What is the hippie attitude towards 
government power? So far, all I've seen from the avowed hippies here is 
praise of socialism.  

> However, just in case, anyone is under the illusion that the MOQ
> supports the type of Victorian ideology held by right-wing politicians
> and yourself, note that Pirsig is also at pains to emphasise that
> “nothing better” has generally replaced the Hippy philosophy of the
> 1960s in the subsequent decades since then:

So far the hippie philosophy is "peace, love, openness, freedom, 
tolerance and go with the flow."  A more amorphous soup of sentiments 
would be hard to find. Surprised you haven't included "Turn on, tune 
in, drop out."

> “Today, it seemed to Phædrus, the overall picture is one of moral
> movements gone bankrupt.  Just as the intellectual revolution undermined
> social patterns, the Hippies undermined both static and intellectual
> patterns. NOTHING BETTER HAS BEEN INTRODUCED TO REPLACE THEM.  The
> result has been a drop in both social and intellectual quality
  A WHOLE
> SOCIETY THAT HAS GIVEN UP ON DYNAMIC IMPROVEMENT AND IS SLOWLY TRYING TO
> SLIP BACK TO VICTORIANISM, THE LAST STATIC RATCHET-LATCH." (MY CAPITALS)

You don't have to shout. You of all people ought to know that Pirsig 
doesn't consider the Victorians all bad:  

"What we tend to forget is that, unlike the European aristocrats they 
aped, the American Victorians were a very creative people. The 
telephone, the telegraph, the rail road, the transatlantic cable, the 
light bulb, the radio, the phonograph, the motion pictures, and the 
techniques of mass production -almost all the great technological 
changes that are associated with the twentieth century are, in fact, 
American Victorian inventions. This city is composed of their value 
patterns! It was their optimism, their belief in the future, their 
codes of craftsmanship and labor and thrift and self-discipline that 
really built twentieth-century America. Since the Victorians 
disappeared the entire drift of this century has been toward a 
dissipation of these values." (Lila, 17)
 
> To sum up then: Chapter 24 of LILA informs us that the MOQ builds on the
> intellectual revolution of the 20th century and the hippy philosophy of
> the 1960s but also sees where they went wrong (namely their SOM
> assumptions) and how society has been adversely affected by these
> assumptions.

Nowhere in Chap. 24 or anywhere else does Pirsig spell out the hippie 
philosophy other than to say it was a moral movement gone bad.

> So, by offering a Dynamic way forward (rather than
> backwards towards Victorianism), the MOQ offers society genuine hope (as
> Kevin might be interested in hearing).

The way forward according the Pirsig is not to adopt another amorphous 
soup of hippie sentiments but to recognize morality as being the 
foundation of reality. 

Best regards,
Platt