[MD] independence

[Heather Perella]

Hello everybody,

     'independence' might be of value to discuss.  The
following quotes from others are from '[MD] Hippies in
Sodom and Gomorrah'.


     Khaled said:  "It's the methods that I bring to
question.  New ones are needed because the current
ones we have no longer work."

     What methods do you bring to question?  Do you
mean methods such as conservatism and hippiedom?

     Rebecca said:  "...(there are a lot of issues and
we're busy people after all) just find out what your
party seems to believe, broadly, and voilà: instant
convictions... I guess what I'm trying to say is that
things are always more complicated than ideology tries
to make them...  Is the Good absolute or relational? 
In my world Good never stands alone - whatever has the
most Truth and the most Beauty is the highest Good.  I
guess Quality is like a synthesis of these things -
that's why it's a bit hard to get your head around."

     I don't know, this made me think of something
(which is the path we are looking for, a path that
allows YOU to think).  I am an independent, but what
does that mean?  It is not the 'independent party'
that I hear about, because I have no idea whatsoever
what that party stands for.  Yet, here is how I would
like to enter the political mainstream.  Would it ever
work?  You tell me.  Here it is.
     I would like some kind of communication center
where people can show up, debate, and discuss issues -
a forum.  It needs to be organized, and mechanisms
would need to be in place for any collective actions
to take place.  So far so good (according to today's
current U.S. culture, in a sense).  Here's were large
diverges take place.  The whole society needs to be
able to have their input occur.  They don't need to
always be involved, because we work and have other
jobs.  Yet, a certain issue arises and we 'log-on' to
the forum, the debate begins, and somehow collective
action takes place.  We INDEPENDENTLY use our own
minds and thoughts to state our opinions.  Something
either doesn't interest us or we don't know about he
issue at stake so we don't enter the forum.
     I don't want somebody to have to think for me. 
We will have leaders, natural leaders.  People who
have an idea at the time that seems to encourage
others towards a certain direction, but somebody else
might get an idea and help lead us in another
direction or further along in the same direction.  
     How do we decide with such a large population? 
How do we consume all this information to be able to
even know what we all are talking about?  How do we
trigger mechanisms to have any actions take place on
behalf of the society?  Well, if we all could use our
own minds and independently step up to any necessary
actions in a collective then we would naturally just
do it.  How did villages manage to conduct and discuss
any societal actions?  We had the Quality Time to do
it that's how.  
     I brought this idea up in another subject during
this month (I believe the Ham & Swiss one).  Without
the time to sit by the fire, discuss with our
neighbors, wives, families, 'log on' to MOQ.org, have
time for universe reflection, star gazing, etc... we
could never achieve these INDEPENDENT actions.  We
will always have to depend on somebody else.  As long
as we have to work many hours during the week in our
specialized fields we will never have the time, the
Quality Time, to independently take action from the
quality roots already set in place - our very homes. 
>From here we talk with our neighbors, show up to talk
about such and such, certain people do things, all
naturally on their own.  
     Yet, what about organization?  How are things
done without corruption?  We are still intellectually
educated, but how are people habituated to stay on
track and not diverge from society all together?  Our
schools could teach our children about social welfare
(when I say this I mean intellectual care, not
necessarily monetary care), the free libraries already
existing could be centers of education not just side
shows for passer-byers, our schools could teach the
Declaration of INDEPENDENCE, the U.S. Constitution
(but this might have to be stripped down to a more
historical content).  Quality Time is the important
aspect of this INDEPENDENCY.  We need the time to do
this on our own.  Of course this would have to be a
patient, slow moving, not earthquake type switch.  Is
it actually possible?  Maybe not.  
     I worked on a vegetable farm this past summer. 
The work was very very hard.  We didn't have enough
workers so much of harvest became rotten in the
fields.  If more people had the Quality Time to invest
in picking their own vegetables instead of having to
buy them at the grocery store that gets its'
vegetables from South America or something, then they
would find how cheap, fresh, and worthwhile their
picking could be.  The farm has a YOU-PICK-YOUR-OWN
system (that's what it's called).  You spend any
amount of time in the field.  You have a wide
diversity of vegetables that could last you for a
month or more, much more if you can and shelve them
over the winter.  That's one way to get your own food
(that's one necessity for survival solved).
     Yet, for some reason this culture believes we
have to work long hours to get enough money to buy
food from South America, when just down the road, at
least around here, you could get your food more
cheaply.  Even the large city nearby the farmers go to
(such as the one I worked at).  We sold in different
locations throughout the city all week.  Yet, I
understand one needs the Quality time to walk or
diverge from their one-stop-shopping places so as to
be able to finish all the rest of their daily and
nightly duties.
     We need Quality Time for INDEPENDENCE.  I could
go on and on explaining, but these are some ideas from
how I would approach governing.  Would others agree
and be able to do this?  Maybe not. 
     Are there problems with this idea?  Yes, one is
what Pirsig stated in Ch. 13 "...this struggle between
intellectual and social pattern."  Another is
population size.  How many independent minded people
can we have running around without any obedience to
some form of restraint?  Another problem might be
historically enacted, such as larger population led to
more specialization to handle the influx of
information and material goods.  Was this the path to
take?  Are there other choices?  
     Too much specialization (which I believe this
culture has) leads to a blind faith of what others do
within your society.  Thus, we need more habits to
ease the tension between us.  So we need to have these
expectations in our behavior, since we all have so
many different kinds of activities going on in our
individual lives we need these expectations or else a
lot of surprises would be taking place, which would be
startling, confusing, and fear ridden.  What are
general themes of this culture that provides
expectations as to our U.S. behavior?  One is consume,
and now-a-days, that might not solely mean buy
material goods, but buying and eating a lot of food,
too.  As we have become so specialized, we don't know
what everybody else does (lack of information), and we
leave a lot of basic needs up to everybody else for
the most part (material dependence, whether that is
within the U.S. or outside of the U.S. depends on how
far we have diverged from INDEPENDENCE).
     More Quality Time away from our specialized
fields of work would help relieve some of this, but we
consume, want more, are a society of work first, ask
questions and figure it out later kind of culture.  If
you spend Quality time not getting wealthy or rich,
then it is your fault that you still have to work a
lot and still not be able to communicate effectively
and enact effectively, and thus roam INDEPENDENTLY on
various Pirsig levels.  Does this mean being wealthy,
working a lot at your specialized job is wrong?  It
necessarily doesn't have to be wrong, nor right, yet,
why does everybody have to do what everybody else
thinks is their natural right?  If I do have to work a
lot at my specialized job, gain a lot of wealth, and
consume a lot to uphold the rest of the culture's
habit/will then have I with independence roamed the
intellectual level?  No, because I think I would be on
the social level.  If I don't perform these activities
to uphold somebodies dream of what a good, honest,
hardworking culture does I would not only be seen as
faulty, but poor (and this one might not only be seen
as, but lived as, too), lazy, and complaining (which
is such when it doesn't agree with your way).  There
probably are other problems and trappings with this
idea of INDEPENDENCE, but it's worth discussing with
thought-experiment to see how willing we are able to
walk all by ourselves on all of Pirsig's levels.

     Khaled's term:  "Spherical Thinking"

     That's exactly the kind of thinking I see helping
us understand not only Pirsig's levels but in general
Quality.  The shape of the rest of the culture has to
adjust to each dynamic quality, and the amount of
change could gut whole units within the sphere. 
Whether this is cultural, regional, and/or global, I
guess that depends what unit amidst the sphere (static
quality) needs moved.

     
     independence, as it is voiced today, not to sink
too deeply into social issues, needs responsibility
and restraint.  Philosophers have considered the
wisdom born from the human experience and what has
happened?  What will happen?  I think large
populations leading to more specialization have
snowballed into forming institutions for controls and
organizations sake, yet, these same institutions may
expand to what end?  To what end will we have to be
spoon fed, until we realize we do need, as Ralph Waldo
Emerson tried to philosophize:  self-reliance. 
independence has been voiced for some time now. 
Freedom is openness of Quality.  Restraint preserves
our natural, intellectual inclinations.  Yet, how and
when will people be independent enough to be
independent; yet, realize that we can't sacrifice
society for intellect and we can't sacrifice intellect
for society.  I hope others ponder and discuss
independently, yet, in a static, linked manner to
stabilize any intellectual footing for understandings
sake.  If anything clears our minds of any static
latching, that is no longer necessary for ourselves,
then the load, if nothing else, will be lighter.  


Spiritual Adirondack (SA)

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com