[MD] atomic bomb and torture

[amir izadi]

[amirman]
> Note how for him the quality of life saved doesn't
> seem to matter. THAT he lives (biological) is more
> important than HOW he lives (social). 

[Platt]
Last time I looked, you have to be alive in order to
know how best to 
live.  Or maybe you've found a way to reverse the
natural order?

[Amirman]

Though I find the discussion we're having about
whether to torture people or drop A-bombs on babies to
be somewhat laughable, I know the matter is not,
because there are still people like yourself who
believe that under some circumstances we must, as it's
a matter of biological survival. 

I don't mean this as a personal attack, but people
like yourself often end up working for people like
George dubya, so it's not surprising to hear the same
arguments for places like Guantanamo coming from the
mouths of Gonzales, Rumsfield and Rice et al. And
that's all the more reason to counter such arguments.
That philosophy does affect lives.

In your quest to uphold biology you're removing all
the static social components that enable the
intellectual level to thrive. One of those elements is
respect for the dignity in eachother. Even in the face
of the worst atrocities there are static, social
values which we must uphold if the intellectual level
is to flourish.

Yet, we always fear that the other may not adhere to
these rules and play the game fairly. That's what
osamaman thinks of you, and that's what you think of
him. For you it's biological survival of the fittest,
and if nuclear weapons and germ warfare are going to
help further that goal, then so be it. For them it's
ALL their stale, static, social beliefs that has no
room for DQ. They'd probably drop an A bomb too if
they had it.

They sacrifice their own biology (and yours), for
social goals, and you sacrifice your own humanity
(social trust and respect) for biological goals.
Though you each give different justifications, in the
end, the reality on the ground, is the same. You both
justify the killing of innocent people.

But have you thought of one thing?? What if you win?
What if your way of thinking survives? Would you want
to be a part of that world?

There are a lot of people that don't.

The reason is that the foundation upon which you have
built your philosophy is based on a primal biological
fear of survival. That fear is so profound, that it
overrides the same human, static, social need for
trust.

But just as the social level would be foolish to
destroy key static foundations of biological processes
upon which it depends (for example clean water), the
intellectual level would be foolish to destroy a key
static pillar of the social level upon which it
depends: TRUST.

[platt]
Let me remind you of what Pirsig said. "The idea that
biological crimes 
can be ended by intellect alone, that you can talk
crime to death, 
doesn't work. (Note 'work'-- utility.) Intellectual
patterns cannot 
directly control biological patterns. Only social
patterns can control 
biological patterns, and the instrument of
conversation between society 
and biology has always been a policeman or a soldier
and his gun." 
(Note 'gun' -- metaphor for an instrument of death.)
(Lila, 24 -- 
parens added) What about Pirsig's statement do you
disagree with?

[amirman]
I'm not a pacifist and I agree with Pirsig's quote,
that the gun is the means by which the social level
controls the biological. However, here he's referring
to when society has to keep certain rogue, biological
elements in check that lead to crime, like greed,
fear, and domination.

In the case of the Islamic terrorists, they're not
acting from a biological motive, but a social one. And
the social level is best controlled by values from the
intellectual level - JUSTICE.

You, on the other hand, are acting from a biological
motive of primal fear. The stale and stagnant social
level of osama and his gang (devoid of all DQ) are
trying to deal with you in their way.

Best,
Amirman

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