[MD] Just coincidence?

[Joseph Bromley]

Hello all,

Peter approach this with an open mind. It may or may not be closer to the 
truth, but if I did not think it held some truth i would not have bothered 
opening my stupid mouth.


>
>Hi Joseph,
>
>You quoted Nietzsche " What does not kill me makes me stronger." That 
>sounds
>like crap to me and quite obviously wrong - will just a little bit of
>arsenic make you stronger?

To rehash it in Pirsigian speak, dynamic storms that do not break me, allow 
me to form new static latches, thus evolving me. Is this understood!

>That kind of statement was latched onto by the fascists.

Even the fascists had some good ideas, they where just intellectual 
cripples, in a world that did not share their values. Hitler had a genuine 
love for the german people, which is not bad in itself but it is in his case 
as he became blind to everything else and idolised the biological level of 
morality. Mussolini had a genuine concern for the physiological and mental 
state of the Italians, he had a noble dream, but fate did not favour him and 
he ended up siding with Hitler who he did not like and saw beneath himself. 
He was however a great peacock.

I think  these forums contain far to much disagreement and we
>shouldn't be afraid of supporting a particular idea of another when we 
>think
>it is right on. But that is not the case here anyway.

I will defend my intellectual right to freedom of speach, that is the 
morality of "modern" society is it not? I would stop posting if Pirsig told 
me to and would gladly submit myself to him as a misguided seeker of 
Quality. Or I get banned, if not I will keep on pushing the boundries of all 
static values.

>I still don't get
>where you are coming from with this idea of collective mind.

>  2 + 2 = 4 is not a value; it is a fact  of general knowledge, knowledge 
>is
>only a part of the mind; when I talk about my mind I'm mainly referring to
>my sense of self  awareness.

1) 2+2=4 is a static intellectual pattern of value (SIntPoV) according to 
Pirsig.  After they have been brought into the world they are not held by 
any one individual but are held by mankind collectively.
"2+2=5 is also a very fine thing." Dostoievski from "Notes from the 
underground."
2) I am inclined to say that self awareness, is what is aware of mind and 
not mind itself. Mind equals thought, memory, sensory processing, what is 
aware that thought etc is going on?
3) Self awareness can embrace beyond the body. At such times individuality 
appears less concrete. Self awareness has no words, it is prior to and ever 
present.

>You then go on to talk about  how the
>individual is dependant on the rest of nature and then slide towards
>'collective body'.


We have independant bodies that are dependant on other bodies. We have 
independant minds that are dependant on other minds. Individuality and 
non-individuality are both reality. Collective and non-collective are words.
When associating with people you inevitably start to assimilate their 
values. We learn our values through our experiences, very few create their 
own values as Pirsig has done with MoQ. I started this thread with the 
intention of creating a science of self observation into the phenomena of 
mind and its relation with expressions and actions of others. Classical 
science would struggle with this, mind and matter are seperate, mind is of 
the individual and has no possibility of effecting anyone but the thinker. 
But MoQ says that thoughts are just patterns of value as the world of matter 
are patterns of value. Both are levels of value and values seem to effect 
values across the divide of SOM.

>
>So unless you can be much more accurate about what you mean when you say
>'collective mind' I suggest you ditch the idea.

A valuable piece of wisdom, as Nietzsche says, "Don't speak too soon." Dooh, 
when will I ever learn.

"There are times when a thought is like a rain drop falling into a pool of 
water, its force of impact penetrates down sending ripples across the 
surface."

I hope this posting gets your mind working. If it still sounds complete 
gibberish then I will leave it alone.
>
>Peter

Regards Joseph Bromley.

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