[MD] God is dead.

[david buchanan]

Robert and all MOQers:

Robert Warlov said:
In saying "God is Love, I'm not misquoting Jesus. I'm quoting Paul.

dmb asks:
How would you square Paul's claim with the apparently unLOVEly contents of 
the Bilble and the actual conduct of the Church? As Sam Harris points out, 
"Human sacrifice, genocide, slaveholding, and misogyny are consistently 
celebrated.  Of course, God’s counsel to parents is refreshingly 
straightforward: whenever children get out of line, we should beat them with 
a rod (Proverbs 13: 24, 20:30, and 23:13-14). If they are shameless enough 
to talk back to us, we should kill them (Exodus 21:15, Leviticus 20:9, 
Deuteronomy 21:18-21, Mark.7:9-13 and Matthew 15:4-7).  We must also stone 
people to death for heresy, adultery, homosexuality, working on the Sabbath, 
worshipping graven images, practicing sorcery, and for a wide variety of 
other imaginary crimes.  Most Christians imagine that Jesus did away with 
all this barbarism and delivered a doctrine of pure love and toleration.  He 
didn’t (Matthew 5:18-19, Luke 16:17, 2 Timothy 3:16, 2 Peter 20-21, John 
7:19). Anyone who believes that Jesus only taught the Golden Rule and love 
of one’s neighbor should go back and read the New Testament. And pay 
particular attention to the morality that will be on display if he ever 
returns to Earth trailing clouds of glory (e.g. 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9, 2:8; 
Hebrews 10:28-29; 2 Peter 3:7; and all of Revelation). It is not an accident 
that St. Thomas Aquinas thought heretics should be killed and that St. 
Augustine thought they should be tortured." I mean, if this is love, then 
please feel free to hate me.

Robert continued:
My logic is not syllogistic.  Good is a synonym of Quality, and the word 
"good" is a form of the word "God".  If you read Persig a bit more closely, 
you'll see that he agrees.

dmb says:
If you read "Persig" a bit more closely, you'll see that he doesn't spell 
his name with an "e". But on a more important note. As I understand the MOQ, 
which is anti-theistic and views faith as a bad thing too, only a mystic can 
equate God with DQ.

Robert continued:
I don't need to read other biblical scholars. I happen to be one myself.

dmb asks:
In what sense are you a biblical scholar? And how does that eliminate your 
need to read?

Robert continued:
God, according to the bible, is neither subject nor object, but the creator 
of both.

dmb says:
That's hard to believe. Could you back that up with a quote from the Bible?

Robert continued:
I've read some scathing remarks directed toward Christianity here.  I'd be 
glad to enter into a dialog with those who find it to be dangerous or evil 
or merely a vehicle of oppression.

dmb says:
OK. Let's talk. I'd be willing to say that Christianity CAN BE and HAS BEEN 
dangerous, evil and a vehicle of oppression. I've made comments that could 
be seen as scathing. I'd also be glad to have such a chat. I've tried many 
times here before. It usually ends when the christian gets really offended 
and walks away. I wonder if you're different in that respect.

Robert said:
Christianity isn't perfect, but I wont apoligise for the historic evil 
people's misreadings have produced in it's name.

dmb says:
Building an escape hatch are we? Would you say that Augustine and Aquinas 
misread chrisianity when they advocated death and torture for heretics? Or 
would you admit that they're both valid  representatives of the church? I 
mean, how much wigggle room is fair? Is the Pope a fair representative? How 
about Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, or President Dumbass?

Robert said:
What I will do is to suggest that one cannot believe in "Quality" without 
"Faith". Scientifically speaking, Quality suffers from the same problem God 
does; neither can be measured. ...If you're willing to throw God out with 
such zeal, you cannot be surprised when others react in like manner to your 
own belief in Quality.

dmb says:
Well, no. One doesn't believe in Quality by an act of faith. It is known in 
experience. As Pirsig points out, you can't subtract Quality from the world. 
A world without quality makes no sense. We wouldn't even get out of bed in 
the morning if we didn't think it was better than just lying there. Without 
a sense of quality, we'd all be drinking poision instead of milk. We'd eat 
dirt instead of food. But a world without God? No problem. It changes 
nothing.

Do we really need God to tell us that stealing is wrong? Do we really need a 
diety to write the prohibition against killing or any other moral concepts? 
As Sam Harris and others have pointed out, the social pathologies that we 
might think of as "sin" are actually far more common among religious people. 
I know that's true here in the United States. If you look at divorce rates 
and child abuse rates, etc., you'll find that the so-called bible belt is 
plauged by this sort of dysfunction. Personally, I think that's because 
people who are struggling with basic moral behaviours are attracted to the 
discpline imposed by the churches because that's where they're at 
developmentally. Don't get me wrong. If the churches make people more moral 
and if they feed the hungry, then I'm all for it. I just don't think those 
social level moral codes have much to do with spirituality or God.

Previously, Robert said:
If God is dead, then Good is dead.  And if Good is dead, Quality is dead. 
The obverse side of Quality is "caring". The Bible says God is Love. 
Therefore; Quality is God. Or am I being to 'Object' ive?

dmb says:
No, you're not being too objective. I'd say you're not being objective at 
all. In fact, I don't even think you're making any sense here. But let me 
ask you a question that I've asked several times. What does it mean to say 
that God is Love? What kind of God are you talking about and what kind of 
love to you mean? Obviously, it would be nonsense for me to say that I God 
my wife and son even though its really easy to understand me if I say I love 
them. And while we're at it, even though you made no specific comments on 
the matter, I wonder if you can tell me what it means to love god or to be 
loved by God. I'd really like an answer that makes sense, something I can 
really sink my teeth into, Mr biblical scholar. This sort of talk has always 
stuck me as a bunch of empty plattitudes and I hereby invite you to persuade 
me otherwise.

Please, surprize me. Don't make the moves I expect. Thanks in advance.
dmb

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