[MD] False Messiah

[David M]

problem is secularism is a fundamentalism for far too many too
read the intro to this on line:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0415336171/ref=ord_cart_shr/203-4863256-7187902?%5Fencoding=UTF8&m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE

DM


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "david buchanan" <dmbuchanan at hotmail.com>
To: <moq_discuss at moqtalk.org>
Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 1:06 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] False Messiah


> Scott and y'all:
>
> Scott said:
> ..Another source for improvement is that all theologians, other than
> fundamentalists, recognize that God-talk is necessarily metaphorical. Only
> fundamentalists and anti-theists take it literally, and their problem is 
> to
> privilege the literal over the metaphorical. In this regard, religious
> thinking is ahead of, say, the scientific materialists, in questioning the
> value of "being literal".
>
> dmb says:
> Only fundamentalists and anti-theists take it literally? First of all I 
> have
> to say that this is a re-phrasing of a Joseph Cambellism I've posted here
> several times over the years. The problem is that you've re-phrased badly.
> Campbell's idea is that theists and atheists both take it literally, and
> they're both wrong. Your change gets theists off the hook, so long as
> they're not fundamentalists. I think the difference is just a matter of
> degree. And the switch from atheism to anti-theism is equally uncool. 
> These
> two terms are not entirely interchangable. Roughly, the atheist doesn't
> believe in God, while the anti-theist doesn't believe in religion. The
> anti-theist is not making a metaphysical claim. She's only critical of
> theology and the churches. Sure, one could be both at the same time, but 
> the
> distinction remains.
>
> Scott said:
> There is, of course, a huge difference between theory and practice in this
> regard. But things are changing. Even among evangelical Christians, there 
> is
> movement, as a search on "emergent Christianity" will tell you. Also see 
> the
> Sea of Faith stuff (www.sofn.org.uk). Among intellectuals, there are 
> various
> post-modern or post-secular thinkers of interest, such as Gianni Vattimo 
> and
> John Caputo ("The Prayers and Tears of Jacque Derrida: Religion without
> Religion"). There is a book called Religion After Metaphysics, which
> contains essays by these two and others, which might be of interest. 
> Whether
> such ideas ever get into the mainstream is, to be sure, not foreseeable --
> not soon, at any rate. ...In short, there is much of the Dynamic going on 
> in
> religion, or at least in
> Christianity in developed countries.
>
> dmb says:
> I took a quick look to see what you were getting at here. As you admit,
> these people and organizations aren't exactly mainstream. These figures
> describe themselves variously as postmodern humanists, Radical 
> theologians,
> non-theologians, continental philsophers and Vattimo is a gay, Catholic
> politician, among other things. My point? I think its rather disengenuous 
> to
> suggest that these people represent theism or to use them in defense of 
> it.
> Don't you think it would be more accurate to characterize them as people 
> who
> are thinking about the death of god, the collaspe of a belief system? I 
> do.
> In any case, I'd much rather you bring some specific thoughts to the table
> because the actual content strikes me as pretty damn interesting. Instead,
> you seem to be side-stepping the problem with theism (even when it isn't
> crude fundamentalism) and faith-based beliefs in general. I mean, don't 
> you
> keep up with current events? Surely you can see that there is a huge
> conflict between the secular world and the religious one? You do realize
> that we're fighting fundamentalism at home and abroad. With your defense 
> of
> theism, faith and your attack on Darwinism, well... I think Pat Robertson
> would approve.
>
> dmb
>
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