[MD] False Messiah

[Scott Roberts]

SA,

> Scott said:
> What of it? Mass is another dimension. It too is
> created by consciousness in
> the act of perception -- in this case through the
> sense of touch.

SA said:
     Ok, so mass is one dimension, photons are of
another, and consciousness is tied to both in ways
more than one maybe, but for now, it seems to be tied
to both by its' act of creating both.

Scott:
I'd prefer to keep the meaning of 'dimension' to that used in classical 
physics. These are space (3 of them), time, and mass. My claim is that sense 
perception creates reality in this dimensional structure, so consciousness 
is not itself a dimension but the creator of dimensional structure. A photon 
is a physicist's construct to help explain the behavior of light in this 
dimensional structure, so it is not a dimension either.

SA said:
     Are you saying that physics, and other types of
structuring fields (logic is another) are turning a
world of non-spatiotemporality into a world of
spatiotemporality?

Scott:
No. I am saying that sense perception turns a non-spatiotemporal world into 
a world of spatiotemporality. Classical physics (including relativity) was 
just concerned with spatiotemporality. Quantum physics -- as I see it -- is 
about the relation between the nonspatiotemporal and the spatiotemporal. 
Thus, I would say that quantum physics is studying sense perception, while 
classical physics studies the products of perception.

SA said:
  Consciousness and its' acts are
not necessary only of human influence upon the world,
but are tied to the actual 'things' here in this world
and it could be noticed that it is not us who grow in
awareness on the one hand, but it is also our growing
in awareness that just allows us to notice what is
already here happening?

Scott:
I am not saying that human reality is the only reality, if that's what you 
are asking.

SA said:
  In other words, our
consciousness of physics is not just solely human
reality, but a reality of spatiotemporality that
exists with non-spatiotemporality that has these
different dimensions exist.  Photons side by side with
gravity.  I don't know if I am understanding you
correctly or not, but this is my stab at it.

Scott:
I'm afraid I don't follow. Do my answers above help?

SA said:
     Thus, as photons and neutrinos have no weight and
are outside of the explanation realm of
spatiotemporality, you are saying that consciousness
is not of spatiotemporality realms as well.

Scott:
I am saying that sense perception turns non-spatiotemporal reality into 
spatiotemporal reality, somewhat like a writer turns ideas into words. The 
masslessness of photons (I think current thinking is now that neutrinos have 
mass, but that's neither here nor there) is part of the physicist's 
construct that tries to explain things and events in spatiotemporal reality. 
I think it misleading to speak of two realms, though I guess I am somewhat 
implying it with the word "reality". I think of it more as spacetime being a 
projection of the non-spatiotemporal. That is, they are not independent. So 
I would not say that "consciousness is not of spatiotemporality realms as 
well." Consciousness manifests itself spatiotemporally (and in other ways).

SA said:
 ...   Since
consciousness is outside of spatiotemporality, quantum
physics also, and faith could be defined as a leap
from reason, if reason is defined as something
involved with the spatiotemporality realm only, then
the argument seems to be headed in a direction that
faith, quantum physics, and consciousness are all of a
realm beyond reason?

  Or is there another way of
defining what reason is according to how you (Scott)
or anybody else is may define reason as postulated in
this topic?

Scott:
First, I don't see consciousness as being "outside" of spatiotemporality, 
since I see consciousness as omnipresent. Consciousness is more than 
spatiotemporality, to be sure. Second, I don't see reason as something 
involved with spatiotemporality only. One might say that of science 
(excepting quantum mechanics), but not reason. Mathematics and philosophy, 
for example, are not restricted to the spatiotemporal. Thirdly, I don't see 
faith as being "beyond" reason. More that faith and reason are 
complementary, feeding off of each other, each requiring the other. Lastly, 
I see reason as having levels, and at its highest level (one which we mere 
mortals do not normally live on) reason and consciousness (and value) are 
the same.

- Scott