[MD] strong wind

[beauteak4u at aol.com]

Hi Dan,
 
        Thanks for "sending", thanks for replying. Thanks for your thoughts. i'm not sure you're exactly resonating with my issues if i could call them that and i'm not sure that "trying" to explain is going to help. But i'm willing to give it a shot. i rather use a beer can as a shim than a hammer and chisel if i can borrow a metaphor from ZMM.
I sent a check to you for a copy of Lila's child before it hit Amazon. Wrote down the date and address that i sent it out; it was a long time ago. Doesn't matter since now i can get it in short order somewhere if not Amazon. ( BTW the check was never cashed ) That said, even without reading it i was moved nonetheless by you're interest and efforts to add to ZMM ( practical application ) and have been looking forward to reading it.
i guess as the saying goes "the check got lost in the mail". i'll be more than happy to buy a copy and maybe two as i have ZMM and Lila handing them out to others. i never lend my copies which are book marked underlined and loaded with side notes and 3x5's that i'm sure don't rival RMP's "slips" system that he talks about in Lila. But i have do one.
 

You said:
An expert! My kingdom for an expert! Well, have I got some experts for you! 
Got a pencil? Good. Now take notes... I think Anthony McWatt is as close to 
an expert on the MOQ as there is, barring Robert Pirsig himself. DMB has an 
excellent handle on the MOQ as well and is one of the more articulate 
members of the group, along with Platt, and Bodvar Skutvik. I thnk Matt, 
Scott, and Ian are helping to push the MOQ boundaries, as well as the 
dissenters like Struan Hellier and John Beasley. I could go on and on, but 
there is no "Pope" per se. We are all in this together... and no one gets 
out alive...
Smith: Enjoy reading the post of all those mentioned as well as those not mentioned; 
( perhaps my hesitation to call them 'contributions' comes from the the C4
that i see in the contribution basket from time to time )
some more than others. And among those names 
i have some favorites. A few of those "favorites" i wrote to off list and told them how much i enjoyed
their writing; asking questions off list for a number of reasons. Sometimes not to bore the group
and sometimes because a question i'd ask in the MD never got answered and i really wanted to know
what THEIR answers were. Everyone wrote back and answered and or commented; batheing in the 
eloquence.... <S>
 
Straun Hellier seemed like he was on a mission to destroy everything MOQ
and everything Pirsig passionately.  i'd say SH was at times eloquent in his tirades. But
i guess collectively it was agreed to ban him from the MD.
Someone once said in the MD "there is a difference
between 'argument' and 'quarrel' " Maybe that's one of the things that annoys me the most: it seems that
there's much more quarreling than argument" Another MOQer mentioned "pissing contests". All too
often it seem that the best MOQers are more interested in pissing contests than understanding and/or
advancing the process. Matt recently called DMBs replies to anything Matt as "theater". BTW Matt and DMB
are on my favorites list; ironic isn't it?

>
>i read his books several times understanding certain things, or at least 
>thought i did on one reading >then thought something else on another and 
>all the while flashing on several teachers ( one in >fact who gave me ZMM 
>back in the 70's ) that i've had over my life that effected new thinking, 
> >shaking up the static rigid patterns of thought engrained in my by XYZ 
>shedding new light on old >thinking both life, subjectively and 
>objectively. All of those teachers were present long enough to >approach 
>and ask questions to for clarity. Some of the best teacher would turn the 
>question back >on me: "well what DO YOU THINK about that" challenging me to 
>find an answer to my own >question using the new information to reformulate 
>old ideas with out giving me their >answer....sometimes my answers was not 
>theirs, sometime it was exactly their answer, what did it >matter if i was 
>using the new system to formulate an answer ....and so it goes from time to 
> >time: "when the student is ready the teacher
>   will ap
>  pear" ( except here maybe ) Just asking me to think in their presence 
>helped me find an answer >that may have been elusive or so static another 
>possibility couldn't exist ( so i thought ). Having >them present IMO 
>helped me in the process.

Dan: I'm sure it gave them a thrill to help you.
Smith: And if you were one of them what would you do or better yet think? ( Oh god just another
idiot in my class asking dumb questions? ) Maybe i'm just projecting Dan, sorry if this does not fit
the divine huamn prototype image you have of yourself.

>
>This is not to put RMP down. He has his reasons for being absent. But as 
>much as i look forward to >coming here to read what MOQers have to say 
>about this or that it occurs to me that what goes >on here is just a larger 
>version of RMP and Richard Rigel arguing, mostly with Richard Rigel making 
> >RMP feel and look like a fool.

Dan: Richard Rigel is Robert Pirsig, or so he told me when I was putting LILA'S 
CHILD together (Robert Pirsig, that is, not Richard Rigel, although if they 
are the same person I guess it doesn't matter...).
Smith: It doesn't? All the while i'm thinking i'm RR and RMP, Lila, and Chris
mostly Phaedrus of course;
crazy F* that i am....also thought the RR meant Dick Regal or Re-GAL and a few times i saw him as
Rigid and Re-Gel...thought that there must be something in the name. Is it just me who wonders about
the characters names?

>RR "Does Lila have Quality" RMP "Yes" but I can't explain why because it's 
>too complicated. So RR >brow beats the famous author about the head with a 
>moral/value arguments that Phaedrus can't >seem to defend against. Phaedrus 
>slithers off angry at RR and himself for being impotent.
>Could it be that RMP is afraid that there may be a room full of Richard 
>Rigels here so it's best to >stay away?

Dan: No. Not unless he is afraid of his self making him look like a fool. Of 
course, I'm afraid of my self making me look like a fool so it's entirely 
possible... :)
Smith: Ya know Dan, Margret brought up a few good points about RMP's "remoteness"
in her post. His (in)ability (struggle to communicate) to/with, relate to Chris, John, Sylvia, Lila, Richard Rigel
everyone for the most part was strange. ( meeting with Redford is interesting )
i'm still not sure why "communication" Was what it was...
for sake of the story; a man going crazy? The news that RMP is RR is new(s) to me. But it doesn't
surprise me at all.
i guess i'll go back and re-read some of those parts to see how the new information effects
what i said. My Grandfather use to say: "Sometimes it's better to say nothing and let others think
you're a fool than to open your mouth and show them that you are" Grandpa was wise in many ways.
That said, i sometimes need to take the risk; fool or not. Have you never been "the Fool" Dan?
Did you learn anything from that hat m'man or do you hide and deny it cause it's not something
to brag about?


>
>Part 2 Identifying "The Pope"
>So now read the posts of the contributors here and tell me which ones are 
>allied in their >metaphysics of quality philosophy? Is "agreement" a bad 
>word leading to SQ that is not as good as >DQ or something like that? If 
>any of you think that you are allied with another tell me who you are >and 
>who your allies are because i can't tell. This sometimes seems like the MOQ 
>Mafia but more like >the Monthy Python soccer game between the Greeks and 
>the Germans: argue your philosophy >while the game gets ignored. Has anyone 
>thought about the game of life? ( And while asking this >question does 
>anyone know the meaning of LILA? )

Dan: You seem to want someone to teach you but you are a grown up, right?. Say 
"right." So. You need to educate yourself now. Ain't no one gonna do it for 
you, Smith old bean. Read the articles and letters on moq.org. Check out all 
the related websites. Buy LILA'S CHILD today, right now, go to Amazon.com 
and order it with that pretty little shiny plastic credit card in your pants 
pocket. Hey, order a copy for all your friends too (okay, so I am a 
shameless "self"-promoter. Don't forget your family though, they all need 
copies too).
Smith: Maybe you need to tell me what "grown up" mean to you first before i say "right".
The teacher who gave me ZMM asked us to consider who was the pupil and who was the teacher between
he and i but first asked to consider the question
between Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle. I found this an interesting question then. Do i admit why?
But i found this on the wisdomworld.org website:
"WHEN Socrates was sixty years old, Plato, then a youth of twenty, came to him as a pupil. 
When Plato was sixty years old, the seventeen-year-old Aristotle presented himself, 
joining the Teacher's group of "Friends," as the members of the Academy called themselves."
i guess it's how you understand my idea of "teach me". Me thinks you're missing what i'm saying.
Maybe what i'm saying means no thing? What the hell i'm just a piece of protoplasm like you...does
that insult you?


>Some of the arguments here remind me of the SNL news skits between Dan 
>Aykroyd and Jane >Curtain when Dan says to Jane: "Jane you ignorant slut 
>you...." no answers just laughs.
>Is decorum and respect not part of MOQ? Is it impossible to as Rodney King 
>once said: " Can we all >just get along "?

Dan: And what fun would that be, pray tell?
Smith: So like so many others, RodKings's suggestion is nothing more than a joke? Are you looking
down your Knight stick laughing Dan?

>
>No one as far as i can tell is advancing the MOQ and as i have asked a 
>number of times >about  "putting it (MOQ) to practical use" i see no 
>evidence of it. One moqer off list told me that >MD is not for "practical" 
>purpose: "practical use" it will not be pragmatic in life on any grand 
>scale.  >MD is just for discussion.

Dan: Yeah, well, I guess saying so off list makes it right...blah, blah, blah...
Smith: So what's your take on Practical application Dan? Are we formulating a shim for a 
squeek in the social handlebars
or just talking about it? Where's the rally? Or the march? Or the sit-in? 
Or the meeting of the minds?


>But when does discussion leave the classroom and effect the social level if 
>not other areas of life >as we know it? and who leads the way? Can 
>"Everyone" know when to get up together in >unison and know what to do and 
>agree on? SomeONE IMHO needs to at least suggest a target, >a goal, a time 
>and a time frame.

Dan: Umm, a goal? A goal for what? How come no one told me about a goal? I don't 
think I understand the question...is there a question lurking here?
Smith: Yes.

>Sorry Ant. i know YOU have moved MOQ to another level but i'm not sure if 
>you're bring your >lesson plan here to MD and maybe you have no desire nor 
>obligation to do so. Can we sign up for >your class? Can you share what's 
>going on in your class in some way that illustrates MOQ in >progress?

Oh, please quit groveling. It is very unbecoming of a human being. Besides. 
Why don't you start by reading all the information Ant has posted on his 
website and quit pissing and moaning about your own ignorance? Have you read 
Ant's thesis? Or DMB's paper? Have you read Ian's weblog? Paul Turner's? How 
about Sam's? How about Doug Renselle's Quantonics website? Smith (or do you 
say Smythe?) dude, there is so much information floating around on the MOQ 
in the archives that I cannot believe you haven't taken advantage of it yet. 
Get with the program.

Smith: i'll get your book and take a look at the sites you mention. But i still think you're missing
the point. That said i'd be glad to listen to more of your lecture even before i read your 
book if you are so inclined to do so.
>
>SA: "The strong wind may blow the leaves into a pile,
>           but we cannot forget the leaves that are
>everywhere!"
>
>Smith: then someone throws a cigarette, the pile flares up first then 
>spreads to the surrounding >leaves eventually burning down the whole forest 
>while MOQers fiddle in the MD.

But fiddling in the MD is better than sitting in front of the tv, right? 
Please tell me I am right...

>
>In all the discussions about what's wrong with leaders the focus is on the 
>worst of the worst and >what's gone wrong when where and how. Is that the 
>only place to look for models? If we're not >looking there we're looking a 
>microcosms, protons and matter on a molecular level. But what >about the 
>Queen Bee? She seems to have no dissenters only loyal defenders and 
>workers. That >system seems to work. What's wrong with that model?

Nothing, if you're an insect. May I call you... Bugsy?
Smith: Call me what you'd like. What would you like to be called?

Hugs and kisses,

Dan

PS... I am going to hate my self for sending this... so don't do it, self. 
Uh oh... that damned self of mine... I just hate it...


Smith: Don't hate "self" Dan especially over me; this is you in words.
Smith