[MD] False Messiah (Evolution of Consciousness)

[Scott Roberts]

SA,

     Scott said:  "Therefore, evolution is an
evolution of consciousness, which includes sense
perception."

SA said:
     Therefore from what you are saying Scott,
according to Avery's position on the topic, the
quantum world becomes what Einstein detected as
space-time (gravity), which gets into relativity as
well probably, via sense perception.

Scott:
I am saying that the quantum world becomes -- through sense perception --  
the contents of our sense perception, i.e., colors, tones, smells, tastes, 
and touch, all organized spatio-temporally. Things moving in space. What 
Einstein detected was something highly theoretical *about* all this. But 
that theory does tell us that at dimensional extremes (very dense mass or no 
mass) the Newtonian rules of space and time break down.

SA continued:
  Thus, sense
perception is capable of measuring the world that
ready's the mind (in humans) to become aware of
velocity, positions and other selective measures that
would not be possible according to the quantum world
alone.

Scott:
You make it sound as if spacetime were created purely for physicists. In the 
quantum world there are no such things as velocity and position, though of 
course there is the potential for them, actualized via sense perception.

SA said:
  Our sense perception would act very much like
freezing particles near 0 degree Kelvin in order to
slow down its' position and velocity to separate its'
properties in a way that I don't even know if freezing
particles achieves.

Scott:
One can't say "in order to slow down its position and velocity" since in the 
quantum world there is no position or velocity. These features only exist in 
the macro world.

SA said:
 Thus, by separating the particles
properties into a space-time perception, sense
perception - a form of consciousness - allows the
world to be understood in the way it is understood
geographically and crow flies here, but falcon flies
here even faster kind of world.

Scott:
Yes, except they aren't particles (or waves) *until* there is sense 
perception. We have no way of knowing "what they are like" in the quantum 
world.

SA said:
  Thus, the way we are
conscious of the world is totally linked in an
evolutionary way that has grown (consciousness has) in
such a way because it had to because not only does the
world demand our way of seeing it to be done in such a
way, our awareness of the world itself would not be
awareness of the world without these measures taken.
Is this what your saying?

Scott:
More or less, if I understand what you are saying. I wouldn't say "the world 
demand[s] our way of seeing", though. The world and our way of seeing evolve 
together.

Especially with respect to your earlier statements, I am not able to give 
answers to "how" or "why" this situation is (of sense perception turning 
non-spatiotemporality into spatiotemporality). I am only claiming *that* it 
is. (Avery's book goes into this "that" more deeply, for example, by lining 
up particular dimensions with particular senses, relating it to 
communication, and so forth.) To answer "how" would require a lot more 
physics than I have, and even that might not be enough, since we are unable 
to think what non-spatiotemporality "is like". To answer "why" is getting 
into more speculative areas. One hypothesis is that physical reality allows 
ideas to be expressed in such a way that they can be contemplated. Compare 
dreams with being awake. In dreams, there is spacetime, but it is a lot more 
"fluid" than when being awake, by which I mean less stable. In dreams, at 
least mine, things keep changing before one can get a handle on them. I 
can't imagine being able to meditate in a dream, or to scientifically 
investigate things in dreams. In other words, increasing the sharpness and 
stability that the awake state provides over the dream state, allows for 
increasing our intellectual ability. At this point I must plug another book 
(which I've been plugging in this forum ad nauseam): Owen Barfield's "Saving 
the Appearances". Its thesis is that over the last 3000 years, sense 
perception has been evolving from -- not the dream state, but something less 
sharp and less stable and more "spirit-filled", to what it is now. It is 
only because of this change that intellect could arise in humans around 500 
BC, and only because spirit completely emptied out of it around 1500 AD did 
the scientific revolution become possible. The relevance of that 500 BC 
transition to the MOQ should be obvious.

- Scott