[MD] strong wind

[Dan Glover]

Hello everyone

>From: beauteak4u at aol.com
>Reply-To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>Subject: Re: [MD] strong wind
>Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 10:05:17 -0500
>
>Hi Dan,
>
>         Thanks for "sending", thanks for replying. Thanks for your 
>thoughts. i'm not sure you're exactly resonating with my issues if i could 
>call them that and i'm not sure that "trying" to explain is going to help. 
>But i'm willing to give it a shot. i rather use a beer can as a shim than a 
>hammer and chisel if i can borrow a metaphor from ZMM.

Hi Smith

Thank you for being a good sport. My writing has suffered lately on account 
of my businesses and it felt good just to let go a bit and have some fun. No 
hard feelings I hope...

>I sent a check to you for a copy of Lila's child before it hit Amazon. 
>Wrote down the date and address that i sent it out; it was a long time ago. 
>Doesn't matter since now i can get it in short order somewhere if not 
>Amazon. ( BTW the check was never cashed ) That said, even without reading 
>it i was moved nonetheless by you're interest and efforts to add to ZMM ( 
>practical application ) and have been looking forward to reading it.

Thank you for your support. The money isn't important as long as you 
received your copy of LC. No checks were cashed. It isn't about money; it 
was never about money...

>i guess as the saying goes "the check got lost in the mail". i'll be more 
>than happy to buy a copy and maybe two as i have ZMM and Lila handing them 
>out to others. i never lend my copies which are book marked underlined and 
>loaded with side notes and 3x5's that i'm sure don't rival RMP's "slips" 
>system that he talks about in Lila. But i have do one.

My personal copies are the same... filled with notes in the margins and lots 
of underlinings and highlights. I would never loan out my personal copies. I 
always keep extra copies of LILA and ZMM to loan out. I never get them back 
but that doesn't matter.

>
>
>You said:
>An expert! My kingdom for an expert! Well, have I got some experts for you!
>Got a pencil? Good. Now take notes... I think Anthony McWatt is as close to
>an expert on the MOQ as there is, barring Robert Pirsig himself. DMB has an
>excellent handle on the MOQ as well and is one of the more articulate
>members of the group, along with Platt, and Bodvar Skutvik. I thnk Matt,
>Scott, and Ian are helping to push the MOQ boundaries, as well as the
>dissenters like Struan Hellier and John Beasley. I could go on and on, but
>there is no "Pope" per se. We are all in this together... and no one gets
>out alive...
>Smith: Enjoy reading the post of all those mentioned as well as those not 
>mentioned;
>( perhaps my hesitation to call them 'contributions' comes from the the C4
>that i see in the contribution basket from time to time )
>some more than others. And among those names
>i have some favorites. A few of those "favorites" i wrote to off list and 
>told them how much i enjoyed
>their writing; asking questions off list for a number of reasons. Sometimes 
>not to bore the group
>and sometimes because a question i'd ask in the MD never got answered and i 
>really wanted to know
>what THEIR answers were. Everyone wrote back and answered and or commented; 
>batheing in the
>eloquence.... <S>
>
>Straun Hellier seemed like he was on a mission to destroy everything MOQ
>and everything Pirsig passionately.  i'd say SH was at times eloquent in 
>his tirades. But
>i guess collectively it was agreed to ban him from the MD.

If a philosophy cannot stand up to its critics then it's not much of a 
philosophy, imo. Besides, I like Struan. Sometimes shit happens, that's all.

>Someone once said in the MD "there is a difference
>between 'argument' and 'quarrel' " Maybe that's one of the things that 
>annoys me the most: it seems that
>there's much more quarreling than argument" Another MOQer mentioned 
>"pissing contests". All too
>often it seem that the best MOQers are more interested in pissing contests 
>than understanding and/or
>advancing the process. Matt recently called DMBs replies to anything Matt 
>as "theater". BTW Matt and DMB
>are on my favorites list; ironic isn't it?

Yes and no. I think that is how real advances are made... not by agreeing 
but by disagreeing.

>
> >
> >i read his books several times understanding certain things, or at least
> >thought i did on one reading >then thought something else on another and
> >all the while flashing on several teachers ( one in >fact who gave me ZMM
> >back in the 70's ) that i've had over my life that effected new thinking,
> > >shaking up the static rigid patterns of thought engrained in my by XYZ
> >shedding new light on old >thinking both life, subjectively and
> >objectively. All of those teachers were present long enough to >approach
> >and ask questions to for clarity. Some of the best teacher would turn the
> >question back >on me: "well what DO YOU THINK about that" challenging me 
>to
> >find an answer to my own >question using the new information to 
>reformulate
> >old ideas with out giving me their >answer....sometimes my answers was 
>not
> >theirs, sometime it was exactly their answer, what did it >matter if i 
>was
> >using the new system to formulate an answer ....and so it goes from time 
>to
> > >time: "when the student is ready the teacher
> >   will ap
> >  pear" ( except here maybe ) Just asking me to think in their presence
> >helped me find an answer >that may have been elusive or so static another
> >possibility couldn't exist ( so i thought ). Having >them present IMO
> >helped me in the process.
>
>Dan: I'm sure it gave them a thrill to help you.
>Smith: And if you were one of them what would you do or better yet think? ( 
>Oh god just another
>idiot in my class asking dumb questions? ) Maybe i'm just projecting Dan, 
>sorry if this does not fit
>the divine huamn prototype image you have of yourself.

My bad.

>
> >
> >This is not to put RMP down. He has his reasons for being absent. But as
> >much as i look forward to >coming here to read what MOQers have to say
> >about this or that it occurs to me that what goes >on here is just a 
>larger
> >version of RMP and Richard Rigel arguing, mostly with Richard Rigel 
>making
> > >RMP feel and look like a fool.
>
>Dan: Richard Rigel is Robert Pirsig, or so he told me when I was putting 
>LILA'S
>CHILD together (Robert Pirsig, that is, not Richard Rigel, although if they
>are the same person I guess it doesn't matter...).
>Smith: It doesn't? All the while i'm thinking i'm RR and RMP, Lila, and 
>Chris
>mostly Phaedrus of course;
>crazy F* that i am....also thought the RR meant Dick Regal or Re-GAL and a 
>few times i saw him as
>Rigid and Re-Gel...thought that there must be something in the name. Is it 
>just me who wonders about
>the characters names?

No, I wondered too. That's why I asked.

>
> >RR "Does Lila have Quality" RMP "Yes" but I can't explain why because 
>it's
> >too complicated. So RR >brow beats the famous author about the head with 
>a
> >moral/value arguments that Phaedrus can't >seem to defend against. 
>Phaedrus
> >slithers off angry at RR and himself for being impotent.
> >Could it be that RMP is afraid that there may be a room full of Richard
> >Rigels here so it's best to >stay away?
>
>Dan: No. Not unless he is afraid of his self making him look like a fool. 
>Of
>course, I'm afraid of my self making me look like a fool so it's entirely
>possible... :)
>Smith: Ya know Dan, Margret brought up a few good points about RMP's 
>"remoteness"
>in her post. His (in)ability (struggle to communicate) to/with, relate to 
>Chris, John, Sylvia, Lila, Richard Rigel
>everyone for the most part was strange. ( meeting with Redford is 
>interesting )
>i'm still not sure why "communication" Was what it was...
>for sake of the story; a man going crazy? The news that RMP is RR is new(s) 
>to me. But it doesn't
>surprise me at all.

I guess that's what drew me to Robert Pirsig's work... the feelings of 
isolation revealed by Phaedrus. I thought for a long time that I was the 
only one who felt like that. It came as a bit of a revelation that someone 
else did too. Phaedrus had a crazy aunt that they shipped off to the luney 
bin. I have a crazy sister who tried to stab me with a foot long butcher 
knife. So what do I do? Do I ship her off? No! I take her into my home and 
let her live with me! A man going crazy? Ha! How about a man done gone 
crazy!

>i guess i'll go back and re-read some of those parts to see how the new 
>information effects
>what i said. My Grandfather use to say: "Sometimes it's better to say 
>nothing and let others think
>you're a fool than to open your mouth and show them that you are" Grandpa 
>was wise in many ways.
>That said, i sometimes need to take the risk; fool or not. Have you never 
>been "the Fool" Dan?
>Did you learn anything from that hat m'man or do you hide and deny it cause 
>it's not something
>to brag about?

I am "the Fool" every day of my life. I go about pretending that I belong, 
all the while knowing I don't, and wondering when I'll be discovered for 
what I really am.

>
>
> >
> >Part 2 Identifying "The Pope"
> >So now read the posts of the contributors here and tell me which ones are
> >allied in their >metaphysics of quality philosophy? Is "agreement" a bad
> >word leading to SQ that is not as good as >DQ or something like that? If
> >any of you think that you are allied with another tell me who you are 
> >and
> >who your allies are because i can't tell. This sometimes seems like the 
>MOQ
> >Mafia but more like >the Monthy Python soccer game between the Greeks and
> >the Germans: argue your philosophy >while the game gets ignored. Has 
>anyone
> >thought about the game of life? ( And while asking this >question does
> >anyone know the meaning of LILA? )
>
>Dan: You seem to want someone to teach you but you are a grown up, right?. 
>Say
>"right." So. You need to educate yourself now. Ain't no one gonna do it for
>you, Smith old bean. Read the articles and letters on moq.org. Check out 
>all
>the related websites. Buy LILA'S CHILD today, right now, go to Amazon.com
>and order it with that pretty little shiny plastic credit card in your 
>pants
>pocket. Hey, order a copy for all your friends too (okay, so I am a
>shameless "self"-promoter. Don't forget your family though, they all need
>copies too).
>Smith: Maybe you need to tell me what "grown up" mean to you first before i 
>say "right".
>The teacher who gave me ZMM asked us to consider who was the pupil and who 
>was the teacher between
>he and i but first asked to consider the question
>between Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle. I found this an interesting 
>question then. Do i admit why?
>But i found this on the wisdomworld.org website:
>"WHEN Socrates was sixty years old, Plato, then a youth of twenty, came to 
>him as a pupil.
>When Plato was sixty years old, the seventeen-year-old Aristotle presented 
>himself,
>joining the Teacher's group of "Friends," as the members of the Academy 
>called themselves."
>i guess it's how you understand my idea of "teach me". Me thinks you're 
>missing what i'm saying.
>Maybe what i'm saying means no thing? What the hell i'm just a piece of 
>protoplasm like you...does
>that insult you?

No. I don't feel insulted. And yes, I am probably missing what you're 
saying.

>
>
> >Some of the arguments here remind me of the SNL news skits between Dan
> >Aykroyd and Jane >Curtain when Dan says to Jane: "Jane you ignorant slut
> >you...." no answers just laughs.
> >Is decorum and respect not part of MOQ? Is it impossible to as Rodney 
>King
> >once said: " Can we all >just get along "?
>
>Dan: And what fun would that be, pray tell?
>Smith: So like so many others, RodKings's suggestion is nothing more than a 
>joke? Are you looking
>down your Knight stick laughing Dan?

Not a joke! I mean it sincerely. If we all agreed on the MOQ, how would new 
ideas grow?

>
> >
> >No one as far as i can tell is advancing the MOQ and as i have asked a
> >number of times >about  "putting it (MOQ) to practical use" i see no
> >evidence of it. One moqer off list told me that >MD is not for 
>"practical"
> >purpose: "practical use" it will not be pragmatic in life on any grand
> >scale.  >MD is just for discussion.
>
>Dan: Yeah, well, I guess saying so off list makes it right...blah, blah, 
>blah...
>Smith: So what's your take on Practical application Dan? Are we formulating 
>a shim for a
>squeek in the social handlebars
>or just talking about it? Where's the rally? Or the march? Or the sit-in?
>Or the meeting of the minds?

I enjoy reading the posts here. Once in a while I'll find time to reply 
though not as often as I would like. I think about what's said here during 
the day whejn I'm doing mundane tasks and sometimes I smile a secret smile 
when I figure it out. But practical applications? I don't know. I guess 
others might have found such an outlet like Anthony McWatt with his PhD and 
his teaching and all, but me? There was a time when I had some fun putting 
together a book but otherwise...

>
>
> >But when does discussion leave the classroom and effect the social level 
>if
> >not other areas of life >as we know it? and who leads the way? Can
> >"Everyone" know when to get up together in >unison and know what to do 
>and
> >agree on? SomeONE IMHO needs to at least suggest a target, >a goal, a 
>time
> >and a time frame.
>
>Dan: Umm, a goal? A goal for what? How come no one told me about a goal? I 
>don't
>think I understand the question...is there a question lurking here?
>Smith: Yes.

I don't get it.

>
> >Sorry Ant. i know YOU have moved MOQ to another level but i'm not sure if
> >you're bring your >lesson plan here to MD and maybe you have no desire 
>nor
> >obligation to do so. Can we sign up for >your class? Can you share what's
> >going on in your class in some way that illustrates MOQ in >progress?
>
>Oh, please quit groveling. It is very unbecoming of a human being. Besides.
>Why don't you start by reading all the information Ant has posted on his
>website and quit pissing and moaning about your own ignorance? Have you 
>read
>Ant's thesis? Or DMB's paper? Have you read Ian's weblog? Paul Turner's? 
>How
>about Sam's? How about Doug Renselle's Quantonics website? Smith (or do you
>say Smythe?) dude, there is so much information floating around on the MOQ
>in the archives that I cannot believe you haven't taken advantage of it 
>yet.
>Get with the program.
>
>Smith: i'll get your book and take a look at the sites you mention. But i 
>still think you're missing
>the point. That said i'd be glad to listen to more of your lecture even 
>before i read your
>book if you are so inclined to do so.

I probably am missing the point, yes. I haven't anything to lecture about 
though. Most people spend their days filling their heads with practical 
knowledge. Me, I spend my days emptying my head of baggage. I know enough 
now to realize how little I know, and how little I will ever know no matter 
what I do.

> >
> >SA: "The strong wind may blow the leaves into a pile,
> >           but we cannot forget the leaves that are
> >everywhere!"
> >
> >Smith: then someone throws a cigarette, the pile flares up first then
> >spreads to the surrounding >leaves eventually burning down the whole 
>forest
> >while MOQers fiddle in the MD.
>
>But fiddling in the MD is better than sitting in front of the tv, right?
>Please tell me I am right...
>
> >
> >In all the discussions about what's wrong with leaders the focus is on 
>the
> >worst of the worst and >what's gone wrong when where and how. Is that the
> >only place to look for models? If we're not >looking there we're looking 
>a
> >microcosms, protons and matter on a molecular level. But what >about the
> >Queen Bee? She seems to have no dissenters only loyal defenders and
> >workers. That >system seems to work. What's wrong with that model?
>
>Nothing, if you're an insect. May I call you... Bugsy?
>Smith: Call me what you'd like. What would you like to be called?
>
>Hugs and kisses,
>
>Dan
>
>PS... I am going to hate my self for sending this... so don't do it, self.
>Uh oh... that damned self of mine... I just hate it...
>
>
>Smith: Don't hate "self" Dan especially over me; this is you in words.

Thanks again for your understanding. What I mean is, most times I don't send 
posts like this one. They are relegated to the drafts folder. I am not sure 
why this one was sent. It shouldn't have been. It was a mistake on my part. 
Sorry.

Regards,

Dan