[MD] False Messiah (Evolution of Consciousness)

[Scott Roberts]

SA,

> Scott said:
> I am saying that the quantum world becomes --
> through sense perception --
> the contents of our sense perception, i.e., colors,
> tones, smells, tastes,
> and touch, all organized spatio-temporally. Things
> moving in space. What
> Einstein detected was something highly theoretical
> *about* all this. But
> that theory does tell us that at dimensional
> extremes (very dense mass or no
> mass) the Newtonian rules of space and time break
> down.

SA said:
     Our sense perceptions has the quantum world
become the sensible world of space-time that we sense
with our sense perception.

Scott:
Yes, but it is one act, not two. The act of creating the spatiotemporal is 
the act of sensing the spatiotemporal world.

SA said:
     No, I am saying that all people, and other
creatures as well, sense the quantum world only as the
space-time world.  It is physicists and others with
their theories that notice the quantum world as the
quantum world, without the space-time sense perception
world that we notice with our everyday biological
bodies.

Scott:
Careful. In creating the spatiotemporal world we do not sense the quantum 
world. Look at this way. If I look at a text of Chinese, all I see is 
something spatiotemporal, namely the characters, since I don't know how to 
read Chinese. Someone who does know Chinese will look through the characters 
and experience the mind behind the text. Physicists, before QM, were simply 
measuring the characters. With QM, they have gone deeper, but not to the 
mind behind the text. They have realized that the processes that produce the 
characters cannot be accounted for within the structure of the characters, 
that there is more to the universe than its spatiotemporal appearance. 
Dropping the analogy, with mathematics it is possible to create symbols for 
a superposition of states, but no one can "sense" such a superposition.

Barfield's thesis is that prior to the rise of intellect in human beings, 
people were able to sense meaning "behind" the world of spatiotemporal 
appearances, which is to say, they perceived nature as the expression of 
spirit. With the rise of intellect that ability has disappeared, which is 
how objective thinking was able to come about, leading eventually to 
materialism. Now we only sense nature without spirit. But -- says 
Barfield -- this is a temporary state. The earlier state he called "original 
participation", and he believes that we are moving toward a state called 
"final participation", where we recover that lost spirit. To do so requires 
not giving up thinking but strengthening it. The problem with original 
participation was that the human being had little self-control -- the spirit 
world governed the individual. Merrell-Wolff points out that thinking gives 
command. Hence, by strengthening our thinking (disciplining it, which is 
what meditation does), we are preparing ourselves to recover the meaning 
behind the sense appearances, but with the ability to maintain self-control.

 Sa said:
     Just a thought.  Not a solid, sure thought.  Just
something that passed through the mind.
Non-spatiotemporality could be like spatiotemporality
and the latter is the spread-out, slowed down version.
 Why slowed down, spread-out version?  As long as
everything is as slow as the speed of light then we
can notice it.  The slower it gets than the speed of
light then the more we notice in the details of what
it is.  As for light, we just see the quite formless
thing here.  We don't even see it move.  It is here
and then not here.  The sun rises, sets, and then
darkness.  You turn on a light switch - its' here all
around.  You turn it off - boom, it's gone.  I guess
what I was thinking about was spatiotemporality is
non-spatiotemporality noticed by our 'microscope or
telescope' called sense perception filtering out
everything as a prism spreading out white light into
many colors of light.

Scott:
You are trying to maintain objectivity here, which is a mistake, in my 
opinion. You are trying to visualize that which is absolutely not 
visualizable.

- Scott