[MD] strong wind

[Margaret Warren]

Thanks for your comments, Dan. I'm glad you liked my images!

And also thanks for sharing the conversation with Pirsig which
does shed some interesting light on some of my feelings
about the characters and their relationship to Pirsig.

I think it's very interesting that Pirsig was surprised
by people assuming he was Phaedrus. I mean yes,
it's obvious that an author is not necessarily his
characters, literally - but natural for readers to 
want to ascribe some sort of autobiographical 
connection to a character, especially perhaps after ZMM. 

So did Pirsig address any of the paradoxes elsewhere - such
as, if Lila represents a social level and Phaedrus
represents an intellectual level - has his moq
successfully illustrated that Phaedrus' level was a better level?
She did go back to her known level, but we don't really know if 
she made a dynamic shift or not and if she did, was it necessarily
to a 'better' level; would she have gotten to a better level if
she'd stayed on the boat with Phaedrus - we don't really know
if intellect is a superior level. In my memory, he left a lot
of these questions open-ended at the end of the book as well. 

The biggest stumbling block I think I have with the moq in general,
is that levels have to be ranked in order of superiority.

I know that a lot of these discussions have been covered here before
and I have been reading through many of the moq links, 
but it's a lot to get caught up on so if there is a specific thread 
on this that someone can direct me
to, I'll try to start my reading there. 

I'd be interested in hearing whether people think the MD has 
evolved over the years? Has it evolved or is it more like topics
bubbling up to the surface, popping and then resurfacing 
in a slightly different form with a new name a few months later? 


Margaret



-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Dan Glover
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 11:59 AM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] strong wind


Hello everyone

>From: "Margaret Warren" <carma at carmapro.com>
>Reply-To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>To: <moq_discuss at moqtalk.org>
>Subject: Re: [MD] strong wind
>Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 16:27:05 -0600
>
>S:
> >Kudos indeed Margrett!

Hi Margaret

Yes I agree! Wonderful photos!

>
>As for Lila and the other ideas in this thread:
>
>
>It doesn't surprise me that Dan said that RMP was also Rigel. I would 
>also assume that he could be Lila too. For Pirsig to be both, goes 
>along with my other comments above (he both believes in the MOQ and 
>doesn't at the same
>time). I think this makes perfect sense and it also creates a wonderful
>screen for him to stand behind. If Rigel takes all the pot shots at him in
>the book, then that's less of them he has to take from the rest of the
>philosophical world.

Yes, Mr. Pirsig said that he was Lila too. Here is an excerpt from our 
discussion:

Dan Glover: Rigel seems representative of the negative quality that 
celebrity
brings in its wake. I get the feeling that the character of Rigel was
modeled after more than one person?

Robert Pirsig: No Rigel is just me, setting the stage for the MOQ. I tried 
to think
of the best attack I could make and then put it in his mouth. One
interviewer asked me, “Are you really Phædrus?” The answer was, “Yes I 
really am Phædrus. I also really am Richard Rigel. I also really am Lila. I 
also really am the boat.”

Dan Glover: I must confess I took the position during one discussion with 
the
group that Phædrus and you were not the same person. I wrote that from
reading the letters others in the group had shared from you I gathered you
were warm and humorous but I found Phædrus to be somewhat cold and so
dog-gone serious all the time. I wrote that Phædrus seemed to be a mask,
like the masks we all wear, which seems related to our attempt at
objectifying our inner values by creating idols (as you discuss on page 459
in Lila). It occurred to me since reading your notes on “big self” and
“small self” that I’ve been considering the person as “small self” while
you’re using the context of “big self”?

Robert Pirsig: Yes, Phædrus is overwhelmingly intellectual. He is not a 
mask,
really, just a literary character who is easy for me to write about because
I share many of his static values a lot of the time. I don’t think big self
and small self are involved here. My editor wanted me to make him a warmer
person in order to increase reader appeal. But making him warmer would have
made him more social and weakened the contrasts between himself and Rigel
and Lila that were intended to give strength to the story. The fact that
everyone seemed to think that Phædrus was me came as an unpleasant surprise
after the book was published. I had assumed that everyone would of course
know that an author and a character in his book cannot possibly be the same
person.


>
>As an artist trying to find ways to survive off of the fruits of my
>creative
>endeavors,
>I feel it takes a great deal of courage to put the contents of your
>character out there in the
>world and pretty damn scary actually to go out there and face up to people
>who
>are going to look for every way possible to slam you, ESPECIALLY in the
>world of
>philosophy. My hat is off to Dan who had the courage to publish Lila's 
>Child
>- I haven't read it yet, but I will try to find or order a copy this week. 
>I
>have read some of the other
>items on the moq site and will read more as I find the time.

Thank you for saying so! My "work" on LC was a labor of love and I am still 
unsure whether it was courage that allowed me to publish the book or merely 
stupidity. The jury is still deliberating...

>
 >If we can look at art, read books, listen to music,
>fix a motorcycle, build a school or whatever with a sense of Quality 
>(with a capital Q) - then it also should be a part of our connection to 
>each other as people. Has anyone discussed W. Edward Deming's (also 
>called, the Prophet of Quality) business management philosophies here? 
>Here is an example of someone actually trying to bring a philosophy of 
>quality into something that most regular people (business majors - :) 
>can get. I am embarrassed to admit I can't remember if Pirsig 
>references Deming or not in Lila as I've only read Lila once.

No he does not. Deming is mentioned in LC, however, so yes, he has been 
discussed here.

>
>SA said:
> >  I don't get much practice philosophically
> >discussing outside of the MOQ.org.  Yet, I hope with
> >this practice I will have the awareness of noticing
> >when the "...surrounding leaves eventually..." begin "...burning down 
> >the
>whole forest..."  Actually I hope our intellect is sharp enough to
> >recognize when a cigarette is being lit to be thrown on the pile of
>leaves
>
>Well, sometimes all the intellect in the world won't help you see 
>something going on in front of you. I think of the sea turtle swimming 
>unknowingly into a net it can't see.
>The image of the Kite that I did was partly about that - if you read any of
>the description
>I wrote that accompanied the image. It was based on a dream I had, which
>represented two things
>to me: 1st) the idea that we don't always knowingly choose a path that will
>entangle us, so we should be gentler with ourselves - in my dream it was a
>kite simply drifting along when it's string became wrapped around an 
>osprey.
>
>and 2) we cannot solve problems with the same mind that created them 
>(which is paraphrased from a quote by Einstein). (Because in my mind, 
>in the dream, I was
>both the osprey and the person with the task of rescuing the osprey). We 
>are
>always
>free to change our mind about anything. Like putting on a new suit.

I like this. Thank you once again for sharing.

Dan



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