[MD] False Messiah

[David M]

Scott

Photon blip -yes but you need to hang your idea on something
in experience

Why do we experience? -that would seem to be down to it having a value for 
me
as (in part) an embodied being.

DM


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Scott Roberts" <jse885 at localnet.com>
To: <moq_discuss at moqtalk.org>
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 12:45 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] False Messiah


> David M,
>
> DM said:
> actually experiment has shown that the
> firing of a single photon can be detected when absorbed
> by the human eye, i.e. experienced as a small blip of light.
>
> Scott:
> True, but that is the effect of a hypothesized photon being hypothetically
> absorbed by an hypothesized electron in a retina. What one sees is a small
> blip of light, not a photon.
>
> DM said:
> There is also a good way to experience atoms that you cannot
> see, just blow some air in someone's face.
>
> Scott:
> But what makes it cool or hot -- or smell like something -- and not like a
> bunch of tiny, discrete pinpricks?
>
> -Scott
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Scott Roberts" <jse885 at localnet.com>
> To: <moq_discuss at moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 5:41 AM
> Subject: Re: [MD] False Messiah
>
>
>> SA,
>>
>>> SA said:
>>>      Are you saying the world is non-spatiotemporal
>>> without reason (consciousness and value; the latter
>>> two according to what you are saying are the same as
>>> reason)?
>>>
>>> Scott:
>>> I'm afraid I don't follow this question. What do you
>>> mean by
>>> "non-spatiotemporal without reason"? I'm just saying
>>> that sense perception
>>> turns the non-spatiotemporal (the quantum) into the
>>> spatiotemporal (the
>>> world we see, hear, touch, taste and smell).
>>
>> SA said:
>>     What I am saying is 'non-spatiotemporal without
>> reason', yet, with reason we have spatiotemporal
>> existing in our lives, in our perception, and thus,
>> the way we see the world.  The former
>> ('non-spatiotemporal without reason') does not exist
>> due to us having reason.
>>
>> Scott:
>> If reason, in some esoteric sense, is fundamental, then reason creates/is
>> the non-spatiotemporal, and unconscious (to us) reason (in its guise as
>> sense perception) also projects it as spatiotemporal. Note that I am not
>> restricting reason to human beings. You might also note that what I said
>> sounds like John 1:4 "By [the Logos] were all things made that were 
>> made",
>> though I began thinking this way before making that connection. So it is
>> important to remember that reason has levels. The reason to which we
>> ordinarily refer, for example that which theorizes about spacetime and 
>> the
>> non-spatiotemporal, is not the Reason that creates them.
>>
>>> SA said:
>>>      Thus, if you are saying yes to the above
>>> question, then you are saying perception is tied to
>>> how we view the world, thus, our values placed by
>>> perception will be found in photons, neutrons,
>>> etc...,
>>> and this is how value is found in these latter
>>> (which
>>> these latter [photons and such] usually thought of
>>> strictly absent of moral and value pieces of the
>>> world
>>> would actually have morals and values due to our
>>> reasoning tied with these particles?
>>>
>>> Scott:
>>> How can we "find value" in photons and such if they
>>> are not perceived? Of
>>> course, the theory of photons and such is a valuable
>>> theory, but I assume
>>> that is not what you are talking about. Again, I
>>> don't understand you.
>>
>> SA said:
>>    What do you mean photons are not perceived?  We
>> see light.  Sure we don't see a photon as a particle
>> or wave, but we notice the larger scale version called
>> light.
>>
>> Scott:
>> I meant that we do not perceive massless, spin 1 whatevers. Photons,
>> neutrons, etc. are physicists' constructs. And what we *do* see is
>> particle
>> effects or wave effects, while photons are neither particles nor waves,
>> so,
>> no, we don't see photons.
>>
>> SA continued:
>>  Maybe you are stating that photons are
>> filtered out via experiment and we do use theory to
>> guide us into having these 'things' we call photons.
>> Maybe you are saying as long as the theory holds, we
>> value photons or the theory of photons.  I guess maybe
>> I am jumping from theory of photon to photon itself at
>> times.
>>
>> Scott:
>> On the last sentence, yes, I think you are, which makes your other
>> sentences
>> off-base with respect to what I am saying. A physicist uses a concept
>> called
>> 'photon' in his or her theory. I don't think we can say anything about
>> photons beyond that.
>>
>> SA continued:
>>  So using theory of photons (theory is our
>> perception, our reasoning) to notice photons (as long
>> as our reasoning holds up, or in other words, as long
>> as the theory of photons holds up) then our reasoning
>> is not just valuing, but supporting something we call
>> photons.
>>
>> Scott:
>> I seem here to be using 'perception' differently than I have been. I have
>> been using it strictly as "sense perception": our seeing, hearing,
>> tasting,
>> smelling, and touching, not in the more vague sense of "how one perceives
>> a
>> situation (e.g., as good, bad, etc.). So theory is precisely *not* sense
>> perception in the way I have been using the term. Theory is our 
>> reasoning.
>> Our reasoning (thinking) does not turn the non-spatiotemporal  into the
>> spatiotemporal. Our senses do.
>>
>> SA continued:
>>  Our value of photons, is in other words, our
>> reason and consciousness of photons, thus, photons
>> exist as long as we value and perceive photons as
>> existing.  Is this what you are saying?
>>
>> Scott:
>> No. I presume that if we all die, there would still be the
>> non-spatiotemporal reality that, while we were alive, we understood as
>> photons, etc.
>>
>> - Scott
>>
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