[MD] Intellectual activity

[Platt Holden]

Hello SA,

> > >      Platt went on to say:  "Thus jobs for loggers
> > > trumps the spotted owl..."
> > > 
> > >      SA:  The owl is not a machine.  The owl has
> > intellect.
> > 
> >   Platt:  In Pirsig's moral hierarchy, intellect is
> reserved
> > for human beings. 
> > Animals do not reach that level. They're stuck in
> > the biological realm.
> 
>      Where does Pirsig say this?  Maybe I'm missing
> something.

In several notes in "Lila's Child," Pirsig makes clear that the social 
and intellectual levels are reserved for humans. Here's one such 
reference:

49. "Societies is used figuratively here as a more colorful word 
meaning "groups."  If I had known it would be taken literally as 
evidence that cells belong in the social level I would not have used 
it.  Maybe in a future edition it can be struck out. One can also call 
ants and bees "social" insects, but for purposes of precision in the 
MOQ social patterns should be  defined as human and subjective.  Unlike 
cells and bees and ants they cannot be detected with an objective 
scientific instrument.  For example there is no objective scientific 
instrument that can distinguish between a king and commoner, because 
the difference is social."

>    SA said previously:  Though doesn't think like
> Platt or I, the owl is
> > able
> > > to change its' habits, but like the Zen master,
> > the
> > > owl is very, very ritualistic, probably to contain
> > > that DQ where no-mind becomes everything.  Yet,
> > this
> > > argument about owls and jobs, life or $, or since
> > $
> > > means life to this culture then it becomes a pit
> > where
> > > life vs. life dukes it out in the boxing ring?  Or
> > am
> > > I missing something here and we'll just go so far
> > off
> > > track and never find agreement here.
> 
> 
> Platt said:  "It's not so much $ as man needs to work
> to live. And
> > he has to use his 
> > intellect to survive. Owls and other animals, by
> > contrast, are born 
> > knowing how to live, instructed (sometimes) by their
> > parents. 
> 
>      Yes humankind needs work to live.  Owls need work
> to live.  Work is effort.  I understand your
> differentiating humankind uses intellect and owls
> don't.  So we should just kill everything for that $. 
> $ is the means to survive in this culture.  Sure it
> takes intellect to read that one dollar bill, but that
> ability to read weighed up against killing everything
> in your path because you have that ability to read. 
> Sounds very irrogant.

I think you're exaggerating. Nowhere do I suggest we "kill everything 
in our path." But if the choice comes down to saving a mosquito's  
habitat and growing grain to feed thousands of people, I'll take the 
people's side every time.   
 
>     SA previously:  So I let you
> > > know right away.  To kill off a species of any
> > animal
> > > just for $ just seems so wrong.  We need wood.  So
> > > take some, but don't take it all and annihilate
> > the
> > > earth while your doing it.  I wish I could see
> > > cougar's, wolves, and moose in the area I live in,
> > but
> > > even though they were here, their not anymore -
> > killed
> > > off.  Deer, turkey, elk, and coyotes almost killed
> > off
> > > in this state of Pennsylvania for lumber, sport,
> > and
> > > such, but people went to other states to get more
> > and
> > > reintroduced them here.  They were dismally gone
> > and
> > > without them being in other places to put some
> > back
> > > here, the woods would be soooo empty and quiet,
> > too
> > > quiet for me.  I like these animals, for beauties
> > sake
> > > at the very least.
> 
>      Platt responds:  Well, we too are part of
> glorious nature. And we
> > know nature can be 
> > mighty rough at times when it comes to competition
> > between species.
> 
>      Sure can, and to kill most of them because we can
> cause we read is an unusual way to approach life.  I'm
> sorry but I'm not getting your mentality here.

Nowhere am I saying "kill most of them." You exaggerate. 

> > >      Platt went on to say:  "...the life of an
> > unborn
> > > trumps a woman's decision to abort."  
> > > 
> > >      What do we do about stupid people who have
> > > children and can't afford them so the rest of
> > society
> > > has to more and more take care of them, yet, these
> > > stupid people could have wanted an abortion and
> > this
> > > would have saved a lot more heartache.  Remember
> > > though, they are stupid so they probably still
> > keep
> > > having sex for the mere lower level of pleasure,
> > not
> > > thinking what a child might mean.
> > 
>   Platt:  Before the advent of the welfare state where
> stupid
> > people having 
> > babies were rewarded with food stamps and
> > apartments, the ethos kept 
> > bastardy to a minimum. Withdrawing incentives to
> > have babies would help 
> > remove the burden from society.
> 
>      Yes, we need a lively ethos.  An ethos that is
> universal.  I'm not saying sweep away the bugs before
> our path as we walk, but if you can take a little here
> and over there instead of the whole thing all for
> yourself.  That's what sex crazed people can do now. 
> Have there sex.  Kill the baby.  Have some more sex. 
> Kill the baby, and keep not thinking about anything,
> but themselves.

Yes. 

> > >      Platt said:  "...limits on government seizure
> > of
> > > private property trumps funding for unspecified
> > > "finest" public schools..."
> > > 
>   SA:      What happened?  Is there a specific example
> > you
> > > can give here?  Seriously... I am always for
> > 'limits
> > > on government'.
> > 
>   Platt:  That's exactly what we need -specific
> examples. What
> > is a "fine 
> > school?"  Does more money necessarily result in
> > "fine" schools? I don't 
> > think so. 
> 
>      Oh, I see.  Your talking about using our own
> taxes in order to choose what school we would like our
> child to go to private or public.  I'm for that.

I hadn't thought of that but yes, that's much better than the present 
system of schools of, by and for the government. Time to get rid of 
history texts that devote 10 pages to Clinton and a paragraph to 
Reagan.

> > >      Platt said:  "...protecting innocents from
> > > slaughter trumps noninterference in other
> > > countries..."
> > > 
>     SA:  Protecting innocents.  I'm for that.  You
> > already
> > > know I want peace over anything, but I have said
> > that
> > > if anybody came after my wife, child,  or even dog
> > -
> > > like any kin, even the hemlock tree in my yard, I
> > > would punch them right in the face especially if
> > > calling the cops first would not be an option due
> > the
> > > time I would have to prevent anything happening to
> > > these loved ones of mine.
> > 
>   Platt:  You better believe it! I'm right there at
> your side
> > punching the crap 
> > out of an attacker. Those who initiate violence
> > within a society to be 
> > jailed for at least 10 years and forced to work on a
> > chain gang. 
> 
>       Yeap, I'm all for work.  Let 'em talk only if
> the talk is positive and the broom is moving back and
> forth.  Step out of line, and put 'em somewhere alone
> for awhile where they have to contend with their own
> crazed mind and see how much they like themselves that
> they ignored for so long.  You know - the true self,
> that aspect of us that is both dynamic and static
> quality.

Good idea.

> > >      Platt:  "...a better life for the poor trumps
> > > nonthreatening environmental concerns..."
> > > 
> > >      Why does the environment and population have
> > to
> > > be in such conflict?  I think it's because the
> > > population of people is too large, but I can't
> > really
> > > do anything about that other than have two
> > children on
> > > our own and adopt another that needs a home.
> > 
> > IMO the threat of environmental damage is way
> > overblown. The air and 
> > water in the U.S. today is a lot cleaner than a
> > generation or two ago, 
> > thanks to technology. Our so-called oil crisis will
> > be solved the same 
> > way.
> 
>      Yes, the U.S. got a lot cleaner, because people
> started to notice that creatures went missing and the
> air stunk.  I'm very happy that things have changed,
> but let's not forgot that China and Brazil must expand
> and kill all those species from their neck of the
> woods that we were born to notice gone from our neck
> of the woods.  We notice when we hear from the old
> ones, read books, or watch TV about all those
> creatures that used to live here, but have no space
> left or where killed off by clear cutting.  The old
> days of logging where terrible.  Miles upon miles upon
> miles of no trees where sparks would fly from the
> train tracks setting forest fires.  People came set up
> towns and left abandoning towns all over this state
> chasing the next 'gold mine'.

Remember what happened at Yellowstone Park not too long ago. A fire 
destroyed most of it. Yet, in a few years, it all came back. Biology is 
mighterier than man will ever be. 

> > >      Platt says:  "...taxpayer standards of
> > propriety
> > > trump an artist's wish to display pornography at
> > > taxpayer expense, etc."
> > > 
> > >      SA: This one's easy.  I agree with you.
> > 
> > Platt:  Great. Now if we could only eliminate having
> > illegitimate babies at 
> > taxpayer expense. :-)
> 
>   Yeah! and much of this comes down to being able to
> having that moral compass in our own head, but what
> happens in our own head is ignored by the public
> school system or any education system except for the
> pushed aside and unexplainable courses that people
> just think we have to have for no reason such as art,
> music, philosophy, wood shop, etc...  Of course I'm
> being sarcastic because I highly value these
> free-thinking, skill cultivating, and
> independence-giving courses.
 
Yes. The public school system in this country is largely a disaster. 
And the humanities departments in colleges aren't much better. What 
ethos to they teach? America is rotten and deserves to be hated for 
past and current sins. Except, of course, there's no such thing as sin 
since each culture's ethos is just as good as any other. 

Platt