[MD] Neoconservatism

[Steve Peterson]

Hi SA, (Platt mentioned),

Steve said:  "Pirsig defined intellect as simply
> thinking and as
> > "the manipulation of abstract symbols that stand
> for
> > patterns of experience." While it is true that
> only
> > individuals can manipulate symbols (participate in
> > intellectual patterns) it is also true that only
> > individuals can participate in social patterns."
> 
>   SA:   Very good point.  I still wonder about that
> individual on the intellectual level bringing
> originality to the table of discussion.


Steve:

Are you basicaly saying that the intellectual level
should called the individual level because individuals
are the source of new intellectual patterns? 

Quality = Experience is the Source that leaves sq in
it's wake. 

At any rate the waves of quality that we are talking
about are intellectual patterns of value--patterns of
manipulations of abstract symbols--not patterns of
individuals.

Thinking of the levels as types of patterns of value
as I do, "individual level" makes no sense. Platt 
thinks of the levels as types of people or individual
versus the collective, but I can't see how to square
that with Pirsig's metaphor of patterns of value. So I
think we just talk past one another.


>      VEL said:  "...as I said, we are talking about
> patterns of thought when we refer to intellectual
> patterns of value not patterns of individuals."
> 
>     SA: Patterns of thought.  That makes this
> discussion
> easier to understand.  Yet, now my mind wonders
> about
> order versus freedom.  Patterns of thought in a
> tight
> order could also be transcribed as collective
> pressure.  This order may hinder the originality and
> freedom that any individual may come up with. 

Steve:

All patterns of vale are in dynamic/static tension.
Intellectual patterns tend to be more dynamic than
lower level patterns, but lots of intellectual
patterns are very stable--like 1+1=2.


Regards,
Steve

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