[MD] Intellect battles the [immigrant] barbarians

Ron Kulp RKulp at ebwalshinc.com
Wed Nov 1 13:08:50 PST 2006 

 I SUGGEST that platt read the bio of Ariel Sharon and his contributions
to this situation...It takes two to fight, both have very good reasons
to hate each other..what I think is happening is we're cleaning up the
mess layed out by Reagen and his hostages for arms deals
Call it the butterfly effect. I really feel platt is expressing the rage
that a lot of americans feel, I also feel we have to think about the
situation and consider the consequences of our actions now..you simply
can not just objectify the viewed  "enemy" and make it convieniant to
hate them..if it was as easy as a holy war then we are all in big
trouble. I have a sneaking suspision that platt served
In the military I'm guessing during the vietnam conflict ( I have the
same heated discussions with my father) who also served..I understand
Why he might feel like he does, but as I say to my father, we have to be
better than them, it's what this is all about. Or you risk turning into
the very thing our fathers died fighting. 

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Platt Holden
Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 3:29 PM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] Intellect battles the [immigrant] barbarians


> Speaking of Platt offering nothing but evasion and distortion....
> Nothing addressed, and everything distorted. Typical and expected.
> 
> Arlo

So are you saying you regret Reagan's policy of preventing Iran from
taking over Iraq? Your criticism surely indicates that's your stance. 
And while you're at it, what is your policy regarding Iraq today?  

Platt

> At 11:50 AM 11/1/2006, you wrote:
> >Looks like Arlo would prefer to have Iran governing Iraq today 
> >instead of a fledgling democracy. By all means, let's surrender to a 
> >regime whose stated goal is to wipe Israel off the face of the map.
> >
> >Platt
> >
> >
> > > [Platt to Khaled]
> > > I doubt if Saddam would have gained power renouncing good old 
> > > Muhammad.
> > >
> > > [Arlo]
> > > Before I start, I've always wondered why we call Saddam Hussein by

> > > his first name, would we do this if his name was "Joe"? .... "I 
> > > doubt if Joe would hav gained power...". But I lifted this from a 
> > > comedian, who I forget, but it has made me think about every time 
> > > I see someone say "Saddam did...".
> > >
> > > History lesson. Hussein came to power in 1979. That is one year 
> > > before Reagan took the presidency. The same year Khomeini took 
> > > power from the Shah in Iran. Iran and Iraq, in 1980, began a 
> > > bloody long war, between the religious factions in Iran and 
> > > Hussein's secular Iraq. From Wikipedia, "During the war, Iraq used

> > > chemical weapons against Iranian forces fighting on the southern 
> > > front and Kurdish separatists who were attempting to open up a 
> > > northern front in Iraq with the help of Iran.". Wikipedia 
> > > continues, "Iraq successfully gained some military and financial 
> > > aid, as well as diplomatic and moral support, from the United 
> > > States, the Soviet Union, and France, which together feared the 
> > > prospects of the expansion of revolutionary Iran's influence in
the region."
> > >
> > > In 1983, Ronald Reagan dispatched Donald Rumsfeld to Iraq, with 
> > > the Washington Post reporting that the United States "in a shift 
> > > in policy, has informed friendly Persian Gulf nations that the 
> > > defeat of Iraq in the 3-year-old war with Iran would be 'contrary
to U.S.
> > > interests' and has made several moves to prevent that result." In 
> > > March of 1984, reports surfaced of Iraq using mustard gas against 
> > > Iranian civilizans along the border. Despite world outcry against 
> > > the use of chemical weapons The New York Times reported from 
> > > Baghdad on March 29, 1984, "American diplomats pronounce 
> > > themselves satisfied with relations between Iraq and the United 
> > > States and suggest that normal diplomatic ties have been restored 
> > > in all but name.""
> > >
> > > The US State Department, in 1984 "pushed through the sale of 45 
> > > Bell 214ST helicopters to Iraq. The helicopters, worth some $200 
> > > million, were originally designed for military purposes." (LA 
> > > Times) In 1988 evidence surfaced that these same helicopters were 
> > > used in the deployment of chemical warefare. The US Senate 
> > > proposed sanctions that would have denied Iraq most US technology.

> > > "The measure was killed by the White House."
> > >
> > > A full chronology of the US's involvement with Hussein, an ally we

> > > supported and armed, despite his use of chemical weapons against 
> > > civilians and the internal human rights violations occuring within

> > > his own country, is available here.
> > > (http://www.iranchamber.com/history/articles/arming_iraq.php)
> > >
> > > In 1987, during the height of this war, Ronald Reagan began 
> > > selling arms to Iranians in exchange for hostages. We begin arming

> > > both sides of a conflict murdering civilians and employing 
> > > chemical weapons. Our morality is unshaken. There are no cries 
> > > from the "Reagan Republicans" to toss out evil dictators. Indeed, 
> > > we are quite happy to deal with them so long as we destabilize the
region.
> > > Thousands of people die, but right-wing neocons don't care.
> > >
> > > Yes, I find it always humorous, worthy of a loud guffaw, to watch 
> > > the holier-than-thou moral champions of the right now trumpet 
> > > themselves as "liberators of the enslaved", when we not only armed

> > > two dictatorial regimes (one secular, one religious), turned away 
> > > as thousands and thousands of people were murdered not only in 
> > > border wars with our weapons, but in the deployment of chemical 
> > > weapons at the very least made possible by tools we sold, but 
> > > backed Hussein against world criticism because a destabilized 
> > > middle east (with no central or worthy superpower) best served 
> > > American economic interests... yes, the grand narrative of "We the

> > > Morally Righteous Liberators Have Saved You" rings not only phony 
> > > and hollow, but sadly and pathetically meaningless.
> > >
> > > Of course, we are America The Holy, we can do no wrong, we, in our

> > > ever righteous actions, are superior and above the immoral 
> > > "others", and so our solution of "bombs and fear" is the only one
possible.
> > > Anyone who suggests otherwise is an "enemy of liberty", a 
> > > "traitor", and one of those rat-like liberals, scurrying in the
gutters.
> > >
> > >
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