[MD] One for Platt & Ham

[Ant McWatt]

Ham,

I thought there was a lot of sensible points in your post pasted below and 
have just made a couple of minor points here and there.

Best wishes,

Anthony


Ant, Arlo, Khaled, Ron, Platt --


Come, come now, gentlemen.  Intelligent people shouldn't have to resort to
acrimony and insults to get their point across.  And haven't we had enough
"packaged propaganda" from the politicians over the last few weeks?   I can
assure you that Platt is not an anti-semite, Khaled, and there are  no
bigots to my knowledge in this forum, although we sure have a preponderance
of anti-conservatives.   If we can't deal civilly with different viewpoints
here, how in the world can we expect the secular factions in the Middle East
to agree to a united Iraq?

[Very true]

Khaled mentioned Carl Sagan's "The Demon Haunted World" in which he "talks
about the dumbing down of this country and how people are told not to
think."  I agree that there is a "dumbing down of this country"; but most of
it comes from apathy and narrow-minded thinking.

[There’s also huge media manipulation.  As I asked Platt once in private, 
was Bush Junior voted in as US President because he’s the best person for 
the job or because of his father’s wealth and connections?].

Look, we suffered a direct attack on our homeland in 2001, and there was no
historical precedent but to retaliate against the attackers and their 
supporters.

[There was a lot of world sympathy for the United States then.  There was an 
opportunity for wider global reconciliation and understanding which the Bush 
government has now largely squandered.  A better politician would have made 
an opportunity of this unfortunate situation].

We couldn't find Bin Laden, so we did the next best thing.  We toppled the 
Hussein regime which had harbored terrorists, thrown out the UN inspectors, 
and murdered thousands of its people.

[This is where you've got to question your media a little more closely.  No 
serious political analyst thought there was any link of any substance 
between Bin Laden and the Saddam government].

Despite the fact that we found no "active" WMDs, we had every reason to 
believe Saddam was producing them.  We provided support and opportunity for 
an oppressed Muslim population to take control of its insurgents and form a 
free Iraq.

[The US and UK governments invaded Iraq for its oil and profiteering. 
Period.  Anything other excuse or justification you hear is just a political 
smokescreen].

Their inability to do this is their shame, not ours.

[As the MOQ indicates, Saddam's government at least provided some sort of a 
stable society for the Iraqi people.  Not one I would endorse but it was 
stable.  Unfortunately, the Allies didn't have a well thought out plan of 
how they were going to govern Iraq if they managed to topple the Saddam 
government so that's why you have had a general decline in social quality in 
the country since the invasion.  The sending of young men and women from the 
UK and US to their deaths for such an ill thought out escapade just isn't 
right.  They need to go home now].

Okay, so we underestimated the viciousness and intolerance of the tribal
morality, and have paid dearly for this mistake in terms of mounting
casualties and lost prestige.  Does that warrant the wrath of the free world
we were defending?

[Again, this "defending of the free world" is a fiction of the Bush and 
Blair governments.  With such policies such as the Patriot Act they are in 
fact destroying the free world from within].

Would it have been wiser to do nothing while the extremists carried out 
their jihad to annex Europe and the U.S. under a new Islamic caliphate?

[This is just scaremongering.  Again, there was little or no connection 
between Saddam's government and Islamic extremists.]

Even now, Europe and the U.K. are finding it increasingly difficult to 
contain the Muslim invasion and are without a clue as to how to assimilate 
them or prevent the "Islamification" of their national cultures.

[Again, this is largely a scaremongering fiction though it was bit stupid of 
the Blair government to support a war that's killing a number of Muslims 
when there is a considerable minority of Muslim immigrants in certain areas 
of the UK.  Hence the terrorist tube action of 7/7.  Thanks Tony!]

Considering Arlo's litany of arms and missiles supplied to underdeveloped
nations, I happen to be strongly opposed to the U.S. trading arms for
hostages -- or for any other reason -- including the defense of Israel.  It
has seemed to me that the monitoring of arms across national borders, and
perhaps even military intervention to control it, is a function that the UN
is well positioned to perform.  That would of course necessitate an
international arms agreement.  Until we have the insight and gumption to
illegalize the international sale of arms, we're going to be confronted by
enemies carrying weapons tagged "Made in USA" or "Made in China".  This is
adding insult to injury, and we are long overdue for a position statement on
the arms issue.

[Couldn’t agree more].

Maintaining peaceful relations in the international community is a sticky
wicket these days.  The introduction of nuclear weapons hasn't made it any
easier.  We have the choice of sucking our thumbs in the hope that we can
negotiate productively with the enemy, or taking pre-emptive action, which
is usually a matter of bungling it through until the conflict has been
"stabilized".  Yes, war is barbaric and immoral, but I believe Western
Civilization is worth defending at the cost of sacrificing lives -- even
mine or my son's if it comes to that.  I would like to think that I speak
for the majority of my fellow citizens.  After all, what would we be today
if the American Colonialists or the doughboys of WWI&II had not been willing
to lay down their lives for their country?

[I agree with most of this last paragraph but such behaviour as the invasion 
of another country for its oil by the US and the UK makes the world a less 
stable place and theefore more dangerous for Western civilisation.]

=================================

Visit www.iraqforsale.org

This features details of Robert Greenwald’s new documentary on the Iraq 
occupation.

“The story of what happens to everyday Americans when corporations go to 
war.  Acclaimed director Robert Greenwald (Wal-Mart: The High Cost of Low 
Price, Outfoxed, and Uncovered) takes you inside the lives of soldiers, 
truck drivers, widows and children who have been changed forever as a result 
of profiteering in the reconstruction of Iraq. ‘Iraq for Sale’ uncovers the 
connections between private corporations making a killing in Iraq and the 
decision makers who allow them to do so.”

A link to a number of public buildings showing the documentary in the next 
couple of weeks is at:

iraqforsale.bravenewtheaters.com/screenings/us/


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