[MD] So cometh MOQ, what next?

Mon Nov 6 08:46:24 PST 2006

Ron,

I understand your point, it's wrong.

Hitler's persecution of Jews and others was rooted in the German culture
dating back to the First Reich, and beyond. But he specifically targeted the
Jews.

You keep citing biblical passages, and if you believe in the Judeo/Christian
god then I understand your confusion on this subject. Judaism would only be
considered a race if you believe in god - I don't. Further, if they are the
"Chosen People", what does that make the rest of us? So in a way you're
right indirectly, because that is the beginning of racism. I won't defend
that, you can.

If you remove god from your definition of race, then Judaism is not a race.

Look at Hitler and his brain trust and count the number of blonde, blue eyed
men. You won't need any fingers for that count. I continue to recommend you
read "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" by William Shirer, to help your
understanding - which appears to be quite limited on this subject, at least
that's what a friend of my bother's wife's sister's step-uncle's wife says.

Yes, we disagree. But we're gonna make it through.

Micah

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On Behalf Of Ron Kulp
Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 8:29 AM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next?

 Micah,

Ethno-religious is the key word, Jews/Hebrews are both ethnic and religious,
perhaps the only group considered that.
The mass exection of them was  considered a "genocide"The term "genocide"
was coined by Raphael Lemkin (1900–1959), a POLISH-JEWISH legal scholar, in
1943, from the roots genos (Greek for family, tribe or RACE) and -cide
(Latin - occidere or cideo - to massacre).
 Jews (Hebrew: יְהוּדִים, Yehudim; Yiddish: ייִדן, Yidn) are followers of
Judaism or, more generally, MEMBERS OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE (also known as the
Jewish nation, or the Children of Israel), an ETHNO-RELIGIOUS group
DESCENDED from the ancient Israelites AND from converts who joined their
religion. The term also includes those who have undergone an officially
recognized formal process of religious conversion to Judaism. The current
Jewish population is over 14.5 million, the majority of whom live in the
United States and Israel.
Answer this-	 why do they call Hebrews who convert to Christianity
Christian-Jews?, why not just christians?
Moses said "let my PEOPLE go" the egyptians enslaved another race not just
another religeous group.
Hitler persicuted not only jews BUT ALL"INFERIOR" RACES as he saw them,the
Arayan race was deemed  superior was it not? If you were not white,Blond and
blue-eyed, your future was not very bright. "the final solution" included
the retarded and mentally ill. A darwinistic society and that’s how it was
presented, it was package and sold to the german public as cleaning up the
gene pool and streamlining society.. oh, he had a religous grudge against
the jews too, they killed jesus and held the monitary reigns on german
christian society too.I really do not know how to present anymore
information supporting my claim..I even called a friend of my wifes who is a
jew and she said They do consider themselves an ethnic group.sooooo if
anyone else out there can help me or give some input it would be much
appreciated.
Other than that I really can'nt go any further on this subject, Micah. "You
can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink"
Unless of course you’re a nazi, then with the right "motivation" a funnel
and some tie downs, you could probably make that sucker drink.

At the very least lets agree to disagree on this one...best wishes..
-Ron

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Micah
Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2006 7:40 PM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next?

Ron,

You did an example of the problem with confusing race and religion. You
compared Jews and Arabs. It should be Jews and Muslims (or whatever) or
Hebrews and Arabs. Jews are only a race if you believe in god.

Are Christians a race by your reasoning? Was Sammy Davis Jr. in the
Ethno/religious definition of Jews as a race?

Actually my father-in-law is Jewish and I couldn't distinguish him
ethnically from a Palestinian (the religious affiliation being unknown),
because they're both Semites. I can't see faiths, like skin color.

Micah

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On Behalf Of Ron Kulp
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 12:19 PM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next?

Well, first off, they call the Holocost a "genocide"

The term "genocide" was coined by Raphael Lemkin (1900-1959), a
Polish-Jewish legal scholar, in 1943, from the roots genos (Greek for
family, tribe or race) and -cide (Latin - occidere or cideo - to massacre).
Religeon is also criteria in the definition, so I believe we are both
correct to some degree, I was just asking you to consider That the holocost
was not purely a religeous persicution. Hitler deemed them a lower form of
human, a subspecies. This is terrible to say But if you lined up a group of
semites, chances are you could separate the jews from the Arabs, and that's
as far as I'll go on that one.
_Ron

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Micah
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 12:40 PM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next?

Ron,

Iroquois is a subset of American Indian. Hebrew is a subset of Semite, as is
Palestinian. Nobody says the Muslims are a race, or Christians, why do you
think Jews are a race?

Micah

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On Behalf Of Ron Kulp
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 11:33 AM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next?

 Ron,

I cannot convert to American Indian, but I can convert to Judaism. The line
is not blurred. The Jews are religious a group, not an ethnic or racial
group.

Micah
But Micah, do you see what you're saying? You could become part of the
Iroqoi if you wanted to, likewise with the jews, you would not share the
same ethnic roots with either, sure you would'nt be able to claim ethnic
rights of being native american but you could'nt claim ethnic rights of
being a semite either. Am I makin sense?
-Ron

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Micah
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 12:13 PM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next?

Ron,

I cannot convert to American Indian, but I can convert to Judaism. The line
is not blurred. The Jews are religious a group, not an ethnic or racial
group.

Micah

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On Behalf Of Ron Kulp
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 11:08 AM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next?

 Micah,
the distinction between "racial" and "ethnic" seems to be blurred, I have
not found where this is acuratly defined.
But the nazi's used to single them out by name and apearance, dare I go down
the list of racial slurrs?
No doubt Hitler used religeon but he used "racial superiority" to support
his endeavores too.
-Ron

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Micah
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 11:57 AM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next?

Ron,

"The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" by Shirer, chronicles Hitler's use of
religion in waging war and persecuting peoples. Yes, the Hebrews are a
racial group, but Jews are a religious group, not a race. By the way
Palestinians are Semites, does that make people like Sharon anti-Semitic?

Micah

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On Behalf Of Ron Kulp
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 10:44 AM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next?

Micah,
 Hitler wrote: "I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of
the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for
the work of the Lord.." As a boy, Hitler attended to the Catholic church and
experienced the anti-Semitic attitude of his culture. In his book, Mein
Kampf, Hitler reveals himself as a fanatical believer in God and country

I've already hit platt with this and he changed his opinion of it. By the
way Hebrews are a racial group too.
-Ron

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Micah
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 11:36 AM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next?

Platt,

The Jews are a religious group. The holocaust was the persecution of Jews,
therefore it was religious persecution. If the Jews were a race, it would
have been racism, but they are religious group and that makes it religious
persecution.

Micah

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On Behalf Of pholden at davtv.com
Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 7:42 PM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next?

Quoting Micah <micah at roarkplumbing.com>:

> Platt,
>
> Was group of people did Hitler persecute? Was it the Jews? Aren't the
> Jews
a
> religious group? So isn't that religious persecution?
>
> Micah

I don't consider the Holocaust motivated by religious belief. I agree with
Pirsig that it was caused by "low level static social and biological
patterns whose overall purpose was to retard the evolution of truth and
Dynamic Quality."
But
Hitler did say he was God's appointed savior of the German people. So in
that twisted sense, the Nazis cyncially used religious belief to gain and
hold power.
But you still haven't provided evidence to support your assertion that
religion is "the most destructive force in history." I'm not saying such
evidence doesn't exist, just that I haven't seen it.

Platt

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On Behalf Of pholden at davtv.com
> Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 2:39 PM
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next?
>
>
> Quoting Micah <micah at roarkplumbing.com>:
>
> > Platt,
> >
> > How about WW2. Hitler was doing god's work, and his persecution of
> > the
> Jews
> > was religious, since Judaism is not a race. Our current fiasco in
> > Iraq
is
> > religious. Certainly Muslims think it is, even if we are just
> > acquiring
> new
> > markets for capitalism - while Bush says he is guided by god.
> > Religion
is
> > clearly the most destructive force in history. I will not give you a
> history
> > course to prove the point either, I only hold my children's hands.
>
> Hitler's persecution of the Jews was religious? Like our presence in
Iraq?
> Guess we have a different understanding of the word "religious."
> Anyway,
you
> don't have to give a history course to prove your point. Just a
> recognized authority will do, if you can find one.
>
> Platt
>
>
>
>
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