[MD] tiny skull... change... nothingness...

[Ham Priday]

Micah --



> The universe is neither intelligent, nor designed - it is.
> What design the universe could have been is a
> misapplication of mathematical probability.
> Before the fact there are probabilities, after the fact
> there are certainties. The universe is. You
> anthropomorphize when you say the universe
> is intelligently designed, or could be.

Yes, that the universe is is a "certainty".  But is it what it is by
default, probability, or the "laws of physics"?   Or is it what it is by
virtue of a creator that transcends existence?   Notice, I did not say that
the universe was designed by an intelligence; I said that it is
intelligently designed.  I do not refer to Essence as an "intelligence", and
I understand that such attributes are anthropomorphic.

> Which brings us to the certainty -
> "man is the measure of all things". This is so simple,
> that it is easily misunderstood, but even here, in this
> forum, we are attempting to be the measure of reality,
> although most cannot see that - the need to deny the
> truth of the statement "man is the measure of all things"
> through deities, extraterrestrials, or alternative realities
> is stunning, and for me incomprehensible and yet it is
> undeniable. But I cannot know the truth of that
> statement for you, you must see it for yourself.
> My earlier posts on this subject were an attempt to
> establish a starting point for a discussion on Quality
> and Pirsig, which was Pirsig's starting point, and yet
> completely lost on those here - strange...in a Pirsig
> forum. But without understanding of that initial
> statement, you cannot have a meaningful conversation
> on Pirsig, so I will no longer try. I'll just monitor the
> fumbling, until the lights are finally turned on, which
> of course assumes knowledge of light and that appears
> to be a stretch.

I can appreciate your frustration, Micah.  I am frustrated too, but perhaps
for other reasons than you've cited.  I think we both understand that the
universe is largely a creation of the human intellect.  And, since we
measure all things, whatever "intelligence" is observed in our experience of
the universe is an embodiment or expression of our own.

I believe the universe to be anthropocentric, which is another way of saying
"man is the measure" of it.  But this concept also implies that man has a
primary role in defining his world, realizing its values, shaping it to his
needs and purposes, and using his life-experience as a means of reclaiming
his essence.  I find this aspect of existence missing in Pirsig's "moral"
philosophy.  I don't see a "human connection" between Quality and ultimate
reality.

By the way, you didn't respond to my last two questions:
> Would you include the mind that is responsible for
> "mental concepts" with "infinite" and "nothingness"
> which you claim to be non-existent?
>
> What other design can you compare the universe with?
> Any design you come up with is included in the universe
> or is made possible by it.

"Until the lights are turned on", can we still fumble for some answers to
these paradoxes?

Thanks, Micah.  I still like the way you think.

Essentially yours,
Ham