[MD] Debate on Science_ReligionToday

[david buchanan]

Khaled said:
...at least 2+2+2=6 no matter where you are in the world. ...at least its 
(science) universal, based on facts, and willing to change according to new 
discoveries.  ...Don't we wish the old religions were like that.

David M said to Khaled:
SOM lurks here, there are no numbers in the world, so maybe you would do 
better to refer to facts that exist in the world, yet we only recognise 
experience here rather than abstractions, so how many cows can you see? 
Depends where you're standing. Is 'equals' such a great concept? ...Does one 
cow ever equal another one? Every cow is different on my farm. 'Equals' only 
ever works when you reduce the full range of quality experience to 
quantities.

dmb says:
Huh? I think "equals" works perfectly well when one is adding numbers, as 
Khaled was, and I fail to see the relevance of cows. Khaled's point is 
simply that scientific truth is more dynamic than religious truth This is a 
point Pirsig has also made and its a point DM always seems to miss. This is 
why empirically based beliefs are superior to faith based beliefs, the 
latter being too static rather than stable. As I see it, Khaled was using 
the math equation to show how such intellectual patterns do not depend on 
any particular social level contexts for their validity, to show their 
"universal" accessibility. I don't think SOM lurks here at all. Basically, I 
think Khaled is quite right on this point and that DM's reply is incoherent 
and misses this point entirely. Besides, everybody knows that cows can't do 
math.

See, the thing about traditional religion is that it tends to be exclusive. 
You know, kill all the infidels and all that. In the West, Christian 
missionaries and colonialism and genocide have tended to be of a single 
fabric. Science as such is not the great peace-maker, but if we broaden the 
notion so that this is framed in terms of social level traditions vs. 
intellectual principles its not too hard to see the calming effect that 
could be gained by a reduction of enthnocentrism and nationalism and 
religious conflict.

The conflict between social traditions and intellectual values, as we all 
know, is described as the central historical conflict in the West's recent 
history. The 20th century, with all its horrors, was animated by this 
conflict and it still is. This conflict is between nations and within 
nations. Hell, its between and within families. See, its not just about how 
we justify our beliefs or the quality of those beliefs, it is also very much 
about the consequences of those beliefs.

In ZAMM there is a lot of talk about the "church of reason" and there are 
some MOQers who want to read this as saying that science and religion are on 
the same footing, that they are equally faith-based beliefs. This 
interpretation misses the same point. There's no doubt that Pirsig sees 
scientific objectivity as flawed, as amoral and seeks to remedy that 
problem, but I think its a huge mistake to let theism rush in here. The idea 
of describing intellect in terms of the church of reason is to make the same 
point that Quine did, that "objects" are every bit as theoretical as the 
gods. In this way Pirsig attacks the assumptions of SOM, but this is not an 
attack on empricism or intellect per se. The idea here is to address the 
flaw, not to kill the intellect or re-assert religion.

See, Pirsig sees the continuing conflict of the last century as an 
evolutionary struggle wherein the success of intellect is at stake. There is 
a very real possibility that social level values will win and our culture 
will slip back to the social level. I think the conflict between science and 
religion has to be understood in these terms and that it would be a tragedy 
of epic proportions if the evolutionary advances were not protected from 
such degeneration.

And I think its a small tragedy that some MOQers don't seem to understand 
what's at stake here and don't seem to understand that they're, in effect, 
defending evolutionary regression.

Thanks,
dmb

_________________________________________________________________
Stay up-to-date with your friends through the Windows Live Spaces friends 
list. 
http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?wx_action=create&wx_url=/friends.aspx&mk