[MD] freedom is for the rich

[Micah]

Steve H,

Children are a choice and therefore a responsibility of their parents.

Well, I'm flattered you think I know how to solve the world's problems. I
guess education would solve most ills of the world, and certainly individual
freedom and personal responsibility would be the foundation of that
education. In the meantime charitable (non religious) organizations with
clearly stated goals of education to help peoples achieve sustainable
economic  growth to a maintainable plateau, without consumerism would be
ideal. Of course giving to these organizations would be in my best interest,
because it would slow population growth and therefore slow the pollution of
the earth, where I live. Also helping others instead of subjugating them,
makes less enemies and leads to less strife, which lowers my life's hassle
expectancy. So, there is the answer and my selfish reasoning for it, and it
doesn't involve slavery.

Micah



-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On Behalf Of Stephen Hannon
Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 11:21 PM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] freedom is for the rich


[Micah]
Yes, you advocate slavery when you propose to force some to pay for others.
You haven't answered the question, by what right?

[Steve H]
Parents pay for their children.  Is that a form of slavery?  I don't think
so.

By what right is it necessary that some pay for others?  By the fact
that some people, especially children, cannot reasonably pay for
themselves.  What about the children in Africa?  What about the
malnourished, disease-ridden, etc... families in Africa in general?
Can they reasonably provide for themselves?  If not do they become the
responsibility of the rest of the world?

[Micah]
I would choose to help the man in need of water, because I value life and
that is an affirmation of principle for me, which is a selfish reason that I
would be proud to act upon.

[Steve H]
What about the life of the disease-ridden, malnourished people in
Africa?  In my first post I talked about Peter Singer.  He
acknowledges that no one person can help everyone and solve every
problem.  Obvoiusly you don't devalue the life of the povery-stricken,
no one does.  But what would you suggest to be the best way to deal
with extreme poverty if it is slavery to force some people to pay for
them?

Wondering aloud?
Steve H?


>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On Behalf Of Stephen Hannon
> Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 10:36 PM
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] freedom is for the rich
>
>
> [Micah]
> You haven't said how you propose to supply the minimum standard of living.
> Please elaborate.
>
> Yes, I agree that you have a right to life, but living is a personal
> responsibility. You are still proposing that some pay for others, and
again
> I ask you - by what right?
>
> [Steve H]
> Well, how do we supply the minimum standard of living right now?
> Usually some type of welfare, but I think that system is far from
> sufficient.  The fact that it is government funded I don't think is a
> problem.  I think we need to increase the sense of community in our
> cities and towns, how to do that I'm not sure.  I think people need to
> realize somehow that "we're all in this community together and if one
> of us falls, we should help him back up, because we would want him to
> be help us if we fell."  We should refrain from helping them up too
> much, and we should refrain from helping them for too long.  How do we
> determine how much is too much and how long is too long?  I'm not
> sure.
>
> By what right?  I think if we have a sense of community, we would
> realize that some people in poverty still contribute to the well-being
> of the community (or have the potential to contribute, that's why I
> have used children as an example before).  So if they are willing to
> help the well-being of the community, they should be able to receive
> help from the community if needed.
>
> [Micah]
> You do not know what I would do, in the "dying of thirst" scenario you
> suggest - don't assume my response to your "most ridiculous extreme"
> scenario. You are being an ass.
>
> I also think you owe Ham and Platt an apology for assuming their responses
> to your "most ridiculous extreme" scenario.
>
> [Steve H]
> I apologize to all three of you for assuming your responses to that
> scenario.  What I was trying to do was apply your logic (or at least
> my understanding of your logic) to a situation where it would be
> certain that the logic would fail.  Apparently I don't completely
> understand "individual freedom."  Obviously you would help the man
> dying of thirst, but how would you not consider that
> "anti-individualist?"
>
> Regards,
> Steve H
>
> P.S.  Anything less than individual freedom is slavery?  Are you
> saying I advocate slavery?  Don't assume something like this about my
> position if you don't want me to assume your response in the "dying of
> thirst" scenario.
>
> > moq_discuss mailing list
> > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> > Archives:
> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
> >
> moq_discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
>
> moq_discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
>
moq_discuss mailing list
Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
Archives:
http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/