[MD] on the radio

[David M]

Hi Ian

Thanks for the below, I'll look up that Beer.
You're right about ID of course.

Ta
David M

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "ian glendinning" <psybertron at gmail.com>
To: <moq_discuss at moqtalk.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 12:05 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] on the radio


> Ah, David (and Horse mentioned) ... Engineers - literally "ingenious
> people" - the archetypal problem solving pragmatists.
> 
> I would say that, I am one of course ;-) and that is probably part of
> the reason I prefer Dennett to Dawkins, he is one of those pursuing an
> "Engineering" paradigm to explain more aspects of evolution. Clearly
> Darwin can never be the final word, all science is contingent.
> 
> I still think "selection" is the atomic process that occurs; the
> feedback needs to be captured somewhere in order to be fed forward
> into future generations, so it's still about encoding of information.
> Dupre emphasied that identifying the right "individual" atom subject
> to selection is the tricky bit. The engineering systems view (and
> Hofstadter) says there are may ways and levels to encode that beyond
> explicit sequences of "atomic" genes. (I thought it was telling that
> Dawkins and Dupre fell out over the word "programmed" ... Information
> theory has a lot to offer here ... I think you know "quantum
> information", "quantum computing" and "quantum genetics" are also on
> my agenda.)
> 
> And oh yes ... inadequate variety you say ... "requisite variety" -
> someone who should be better known is Stafford Beer. The engineering
> systems view of emergent behaviour. I've barely scratched the surface
> there. (By the way, Horse is an expert here I believe.)
> 
> I'm pretty sure this stuff is explicable and tractable. What Pirsig
> brings to this is the emphasis on the levels and the dynamism, and
> effectively warns against reification - treating "objects" that
> inhabit your current level as necessarily the most significant
> realities to worry about when you're looking to understand cause and
> effect - the qualitative, zen, recursive interplay of "emergent
> arising" (Paul, where are you ?). For me Dawkins is too sure of the
> objectivity of his selfish genes. Nature has much more complex
> "memory" than that as a basis for "selecting" individuals.
> 
> The orthodoxy you refer to is the objectivity of scientific method -
> SoMism for short.
> You got me started, but there are a lot of threads to weave here.
> Ian
> BTW, if we're going to allow "intelligent design" to creep in to the
> conversation, we'll need to be clear about the way we are NOT using
> those words.
> 
> On 11/28/06, David M <davidint at blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>> Hi Ian
>>
>> I was glad John  brought up the new
>> interest in the ability to alter the genome
>> via gene switches which may introduce
>> some feed back from experience into evolution
>> other than mere elimination which has always
>> struck me as a process incapable of building
>> anything, much like an infinite number of monkeys
>> trying to type Hamlet and someone helping out
>> by removing the monkeys that are least near to
>> typing out Hamlet, problem is you are appealing
>> to an infinity that is not available and such an availability
>> of variety (Darwin's unjustified elephant) could only
>> give you chaos. He used dog breeding as an example,
>> and recently it has been shown that dogs have exceptional
>> variety in their gene pool that is not found elsewhere
>> which points out a general problem of inadequate
>> variety to support the theory and also to explain why
>> dogs are so exceptional.
>>
>> Ask an engineer who understands the complexity
>> of living organisms if they are convinced by selected
>> variety as explaining evolution. I find engineers are
>> more skeptical than average as using design
>> is far from the easy option.
>>
>> NB obviously evolution is a fact but is Darwin the final word?
>> Say yes and sign up to to dogmatism and a life of secular faith.
>>
>> I don't suggest nature is pre-designed, but is there more quality
>> recognising intelligence involved than orthodoxy allows?
>> At least the MOQ could explore this whilst SOM could not.
>>
>> Over to you Ian.
>>
>> David M
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "ian glendinning" <psybertron at gmail.com>
>> To: <moq_discuss at moqtalk.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 9:22 PM
>> Subject: Re: [MD] on the radio
>>
>>
>> > For those interested in the selfish / slefless "altruism" debate, I
>> > can endorse David M's recommendation.
>> >
>> > Just listened to it. Excellent.
>> >
>> > Interesting that the subtle differences between Dupre and Dawkins are
>> > effectively just word-games in the end, and that it's the social
>> > (cultural) vs individual distinction that merits most debate.
>> >
>> > Also interesting that Bragg refers to religion as "the elephant in the
>> > room" and introduces it as something "to be discussed, before putting
>> > it to one side".
>> >
>> > Ian
>> >
>> > On 11/25/06, David M <davidint at blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>> >> this was quite good if you missed it:
>> >>
>> >> http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/inourtime/inourtime.shtml
>> >>
>> >> on altruism with Dawkins, and the vey good John Dupre
>> >>
>> >> David M
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
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