[MD] Primer

[Squonkonguitar at aol.com]

Mark 7-6-06:
Hello Gav.
 
Gav:
i am a mystic.
 
Mark 7-6-06:
“There is the Quality of Zen and there is the Quality of the MOQ and they  
are not the same thing anymore because the MOQ is an intellectual static pattern 
 and already it’s been polluted plenty to get into that pattern. All of a 
sudden  you’re taking sides. You’re picking and choosing and in Zen you’re not 
supposed  to do that. I’ll give you that koan: ‘the way is not difficult but 
it avoids  picking and choosing.’ That’s a famous koan and the quality that is 
Quality is  arrived at not by picking and choosing.” (Robert Pirsig. AHP 
conference  1993)
If you're going to write a Primer then you're going to have to pick and  
choose Gav.

Gav:
that is why the code of art trumps the other codes, because the  DQ/sq level 
is more... ...moral...
 

Mark 7-6-06:
I think the MoQ says sq patterns which are more Dyanmic are more moral, and  
art is closer to DQ than rigid patterns.
Why not talk of Art and Aesthetics instead of mysticism then?
At least Art is a creative activity everyone can relate to, but talk of  
mysticism is divisive and elitist.
People can be more or less creative but not more or less mystic so it  seems?

 
Gav: '<some> ...representations of Quality... ...are more  correct or 
accurate, mystically speaking, than others.'
I think what you are saying here is, 'Intellectual representations of  
Quality are aesthetic.'
You see, i avoid any mention of mysticism by talking instead about Art and  
the Aesthetic.
I've been doing this ever since i joined the MD (and MF) but no-one has  
followed me.
Zen and the ART of motorcycle maintenance!
 
Gav:
it seems good to me - vital actually -  to reinforce the  primacy of the 
experiential over the intellectual.
 

Mark 7-6-06: The nature of art is creativity, and the nature of creativity  
is DQ and DQ is experienced.
Therefore, the intellectual can be experienced  aesthetically.


Gav:
i wanted the first level of the primer, the primary level, to *not  be* about 
metaphysics or divisions or intellect really. i wanted it to have its  own 
poetic, organic logic. cos thinking is secondary to experience.
 

Mark 7-6-06: I think you can have all the poetic you like AND deal with the  
intellect if we recognise the formal role of Quality in the rational:  
Intellectual activity is art.
“Dynamic Quality is the only part of Quality described in ZMM. It is the  
part of Quality about which everyone agrees. The experience of Dynamic Quality  
is the same for everyone, it is only the experiences and objects which are  
mentally associated with the experience which are different. There is no  
difference in the liking when the liking is independent of the things  liked.”
 
 
Gav:
reckon a general rule is: more divisions, less accuracy.
 
Mark 7-6-06: No divisions: bullseye? We're back to Art again IMHO
I was trying to get this across at the 2005 Liverpool  conference.

Gav:
a lot of our probs stem from the fact that we  are
putting analytic stuff at the top: dividing stuff up
FIRST, instead of  SECOND.


 

Mark 7-6-06:
If all people did was talk about DQ and sq all the time i would be as happy  
as the day is long.
How about you?
The fact that people hardly ever do is problematic IMHO. If people talk  
about DQ they may appreciate the relationship between it and  art.


 
 
Gav:
you both miss the point here. i am not saying quality is  correct/incorrect.
 
Mark 7-6-06: I hate to be a twat Gav but you did say, 'quality is... ...the  
highest most correct level.'
You have to take responsibility for your own statements. And if this  
statement had been included in the Primer, you would now be telling us it is not  so.
This is one of the problems with knocking out a Primer - it's got to be  high 
Quality.

 
Gav:
okay looks like we have already run into big examples of why a  primer is 
very necessary. wow.
 
Mark 7-6-06:
If you're telling me i need a Primer after 14 years of thinking about the  
MoQ i may as well go fishing.
The problem with that is, i now know fishing is an art form aiming at  DQ.
Maybe that's our Primer right there: Go fish and become a better  person.
 
Gav:
huge disagreements twixt me and platt and mark on simple basics. if we get  
agreement on the basics then, theoretically, should have a lot less trouble 
from  what is extrapolated from them later on.
 
 
Mark 7-6-06:
There are no disagreements huge or otherwise about basics simple or  
otherwise Gav.
The trouble starts when people begin talking, 'about' Quality.
Lila was written to explain different static histories: You, Platt and i  
have different static histories.
But you, Platt and i agree that Quality is primary.

 
Love,
 
Mark