[MD] Flying Spagetti Monsters

[Micah]

Ian,

>When the last conscious being dies, reality as conceived, will cease
>to exist, until some new conscious species arise. (Whatever exists
>independently, is certainly something with ontological concepts.)

Wild ass speculation, without merit. If - if ands buts were turkey and nuts,
we all be having thanksgiving. Further, your wild ass speculation is totally
irrelevant to our reality. There is only one reality for humans.

>It's the consciousness (particularly self-consciousness) that is
>special here, not the human species necessarily. (Humans are special
>only in so far as we appear to be the most highly developed
>self-conscious beings in those parts of the universe we happen to be
>aware of.)

Speculation, stick to the facts - there is only one consciousness - human
consciousness.

>(And yes there is evidence other conscious animals do hold and work
>with concepts. Do you want me to dig some up ? Whatever it, is not a
>matter of opinion, so simply disagreeing with my simple point doesn't
>get us anywhere.)

I'm not disagreeing with you, show me one example of animals having
concepts, independent of man. It's not possible, "evidence" implies man's
involvement.

Micah



-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On Behalf Of ian glendinning
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 1:12 PM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] Flying Spagetti Monsters


Micah,

When the last conscious being dies, reality as conceived, will cease
to exist, until some new conscious species arise. (Whetever exists
independently, is certainly something with ontological concepts.)

It's the consciousness (particularly self-consciousness) that is
special here, not the human species necessarily. (Humans are special
only in so far as we appear to be the most highly developed
self-conscious beings in those parts of the universe we happen to be
aware of.)

(And yes there is evidence other conscious animals do hold and work
with concepts. Do you want em to dig some up ? Whatever it, is not a
matter of opinion, so simply disagreeing with my simple point doesn't
get us anywhere.)

Ian

On 10/10/06, Micah <micah at roarkplumbing.com> wrote:
> Arlo,
>
> Humans exist independently of Dodo birds, or any extinct plant or animal,
> for that matter. We could kill all monkeys, and humans would still exist.
We
> can remove anything, except humans, from reality, and reality still
exists.
> But reality cannot be shown to exist without humans. Man is the measure of
> all things.
>
> Monkeys don't have points of view, humans do.
>
> Arlo is the measure of all things, when he is the only human. When two or
> more humans are present, shared objective reality is the measure of all
> things. But either way, humans are the measure of reality - not monkeys,
> only humans.
>
> People have died, and reality still exists. But when the last human dies,
> reality cannot be shown to exist. Reality, in fact, is human. This is
> elemental and is Pirsig's philosophical "jumping off point".
>
> Micah
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On Behalf Of Arlo Bensinger
> Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 12:09 PM
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] Flying Spagetti Monsters
>
>
> [Micah]
> Rhetorical question, as nothing can be shown to exist independent of
humans.
>
> [Arlo]
> Nothing can be shown to exist independent of "me". If I kill myself, in an
> attempt to see if things exist "independent" of me, what will I find?
> Nothing. And, from a monkey's point of view, nothing can be said to exist
> independently of monkeys.
>
> [Micah]
> Man is the measure of all things.
>
> [Arlo]
> Therefore, Arlo is the measure of all things... or perhaps monkeys are.
>
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