[MD] Flying Spagetti Monsters

[ARLO J BENSINGER JR]

[Micah]
Monkeys don't have a point of view, you are assuming.

[Arlo]
And how would you prove they don't? By defining "point of view" as something
that to exist must be understood by humans. You are in a circular trap. All the
best to you.

[Micah]
Well, I'd say evolution accounts for life on earth past and present, as for how
it all started - I don't know. Are you implying that the past isn't part of
man's reality? How can we know of the existence of something we don't know of?
If man did not exist, how can reality be shown to exist?

[Arlo]
Man did not exist 650 million years ago. Did reality not exist then? Or did the
past spring into existence with the arrival of "man"?

[Micah]
I didn't say that, pay attention. Reality cannot be shown to exist without
humans, and humans (two or more) have shared objective reality.

[Arlo]
Oh, I'm paying attention alright. Here is what you are saying, "Reality cannot
be shown to exist TO OTHER HUMANS without humans, and humans (two or more) have
shared objective reality." I'm sure that monkey could convince his/her partner
that reality would continue to exist when we are all gone.

[Micah]
You have misinterpreted Pirsig. Quality is where subject and object meet.

[Arlo]
"This means Quality is not just the result of a collision between subject and
object. The very existence of subject and object themselves is deduced from the
Quality event. The Quality event is the cause of the subjects and objects,
which are then mistakenly presumed to be the cause of the Quality!"