[MD] A formalised Code of Art

[Squonkonguitar at aol.com]

Hello everyone

>From: Squonkonguitar at aol.com
>Reply-To:  moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>Subject: Re:  [MD] A formalised Code of Art
>Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 16:18:23  EDT
>
>Dan:
>The more a person thinks about it, the farther  away Buddha mind  recedes.
>
>Mark 11-10-06: Hello  Dan.

Hi Mark

It's good to hear from you again - thank you for  writing!

>This may be so, but you may have missed something of  importance to the  MoQ
>in your later explanation.
>The term,  'Thinking' may be social thinking in imitated ritual  language  or
>abstract symbolic manipulation.
>Abstract Symbolic Manipulation  (ASM) is a far more Dynamic level of
>evolution than the level of Imitated  Ritual Language (IRL) and it is my 
>belief  that
>the  translated quote regarding killing intellectual patterns is  mainly
>concerned with IRL. Lila has no intellectual patterns to speak  of.

Dan:
This is interesting but I find it obscures rather than illuminates  the 
lesson of the quote... "kill all intellectual patterns." Talking has a  habit 
of doing that.
 
Mark 12-10-06: Hello Dan.
"When early Western investigators first read the Buddhist texts they  too
interpreted nirvana as some kind of suicide.  There's a famous poem  that
goes:
While living,
Be a dead man.
Be completely dead,
And  then do as you please.
And all will be well.
It sounds like something from  a Hollywood horror-film but it's about
nirvana.  The Metaphysics of  Quality translates it:
While sustaining biological and social  patterns
Kill all intellectual patterns.
Kill them completely
And then  follow Dynamic Quality
And morality will be served." (Lila. ch. 32)
I think Pirsig may have got this wrong.
The Buddha was undermining the severe ritualistic nature of his culture, so  
in his time it is social patterns of religious ritual he is undermining.
So, the MoQ would translate:
"While sustaining biological  patterns
Kill all social patterns.
Kill them completely
And then  follow Dynamic Quality
And morality will be served."
Intellectual quality doesn't come into it until later.

>The  Buddha never knew of Calculus - ASM.
>The People the Buddha attacked with  his arguments were those so stuck in  
>IRL
>- thinking of this  description - that the sq patterns of IRL were the 
>source
>of much  pain and suffering. So to dissipate them is a release, a dying, a
>killing  of the source of pain.

Dan:
I think you're reading the quote in a way that leads one in  circles.
 
Mark 12-10-06: I'm reading the quote in the context of evolution. Evolution  
tells us there was a time when intellectual patterns did not exist.
I don't see how this is circular. It's easy to make statements like the one  
you make here and just leave it hanging in the air like i'm supposed to think  
you're being very esoteric.

>As such, it is also a leap in Dynamic  growth toward freedom.
>The point is not to sustain a Dynamic point of  view, but to use a Dynamic
>point of view to initiate change.

Dan:
"And then follow Dynamic Quality" is freedom, according to the  MOQ.
 
Mark 12-10-06: Agreed. And today we can free up intellectual patterns  also.
The question is, 'How does living a completely free unpatterned life  sustain 
itself'?

>
>Dan:
>Intellectual patterns of value  obscure Dynamic Quality.
>
>Mark 11-10-06:
>Do they?

Dan:
I think so.

>But do they though?

Dan:
You're obscuring Dynamic Quality right now.
 
Mark 12-10-06: I'm doing my best to point at emphasise it within the  MoQ.

>Now we are in the realm of ASM and NOT IRL.
>Killing ASM  patterns is a source of intuitive freedom to advance the   
>quality
>of the ASM repertoire itself - creativity, which is  moral.

Dan:
I sit and the grass grows on its own. What I mean to say is,  creativity (for 
me) isn't the abstract manipulation of symbols so much as it  is letting go. 
I don't know where "it" comes from. Do you?
 
Mark 12-10-06: One typo and that becomes, 'I shit and the grass grows'  which 
has a scientific irony to it.
If you've just laghed you may have found  it?

>
>Dan:
>Translating this into Quality  terms,
>
>Mark 11-10-06: What do you mean, 'Translating this into  Quality  terms?'
>This quote has ALREADY been translated into Quality  terms from the Buddhist
>poem.

Dan:
Well yes, but I meant translating my first paragraph, not the  quote. Sorry 
for the confusion.

>
>Dan:
>I think the  above quote has to do with the practice of stilling the   
>internal
>dialogue we all have going on inside our heads. When the  dialogue  becomes
>quiet, the thinking that normally obscures Dynamic  Quality also ceases  and 
>"it"
>shines  through.
>
>Mark 11-10-06: Exactly, but our, 'Internal dialogue' has  two components,  
>IRL
>and ASM.

Dan:
You are intellectualizing too much here Mark. Just stop thinking so  much!
 
Mark 12-10-06: Straight after writing here i'm going to settle down and  
avoid all thinking. It's been a swine of a day!

>The Buddha wishes to  kill IRL big time to block religious patterns.
>Once religious patterns  are blocked, the way toward ASM opens up, and/or
>total Dynamic Quality.  Is it really possible to live in a state of pure DQ 
>in  an
>evolving world?

Dan:
I don't know.
 
Mark 12-10-06: Me too neither, as Stan Laurel might say.

>Back  here in 2006 CE, not -2006CE of the Buddha, ASM patterns are killed   
>for
>creativity - evolution - and/or pure DQ. Is it really  possible to live in a
>state of pure DQ in an evolving world?

Dan:
I don't know.

>
>Dan:
>We  remember.
>
>Mark 11-10-06: A cuddly way of putting it, but we can't  remember nothing.

Dan:
You just haven't remembered, that's all.

>DQ is death -  nothing - no patterns.

Dan:
Is death better?
 
Mark 12-10-06: I think it's useful. Most  useful.

>
>Dan:
>Meditation is one method of practice,  becoming absorbed in one's art  
>another.
>
>Mark  11-10-06: Just sitting over a maths problem is a form of meditation.
>So,  becoming absorbed in ones art is a form of meditation (e.g.  motorcycle
>maintenance).

Dan:
I think you're right yet formalized practice stresses right  practice, which 
is to say techniques which lend themselves to the stilling  of the internal 
dialogue by correct body posture, correct living, etc.
 
Mark 12-10-06: OK. Fair enough.

>
>There are many ways to  still the internal dialogue yet it is also important
>to sustain  biological and social functionings at the same time...
>otherwise  degeneracy occurs and morality is not served by degeneracy.
>
>Mark  11-10-06: This is a fancy way of saying suicide is immoral, which  is
>irrelevant as suicide isn't what the quote is saying.

Dan:
Well no, although it certainly can be interpreted that way, which  Robert 
Pirsig expounds upon in this section of LILA. I think he has laid out  a good 
arguement and there is no reason for me to further elaborate  here.

Once again, thank you for your reply,

Dan
 
Mark 12-10-06: Love, Mark