[MD] A formalised Code of Art

[Dan Glover]

Hello everyone

>From: Squonkonguitar at aol.com
>Reply-To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>Subject: Re: [MD] A formalised Code of Art
>Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 15:54:19 EDT
>
>Hello everyone
>
> >From: Squonkonguitar at aol.com
> >Reply-To:  moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> >To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> >Subject: Re:  [MD] A formalised Code of Art
> >Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 16:18:23  EDT
> >
> >Dan:
> >The more a person thinks about it, the farther  away Buddha mind  
>recedes.
> >
> >Mark 11-10-06: Hello  Dan.
>
>Hi Mark
>
>It's good to hear from you again - thank you for  writing!
>
> >This may be so, but you may have missed something of  importance to the  
>MoQ
> >in your later explanation.
> >The term,  'Thinking' may be social thinking in imitated ritual  language 
>  or
> >abstract symbolic manipulation.
> >Abstract Symbolic Manipulation  (ASM) is a far more Dynamic level of
> >evolution than the level of Imitated  Ritual Language (IRL) and it is my
> >belief  that
> >the  translated quote regarding killing intellectual patterns is  mainly
> >concerned with IRL. Lila has no intellectual patterns to speak  of.
>
>Dan:
>This is interesting but I find it obscures rather than illuminates  the
>lesson of the quote... "kill all intellectual patterns." Talking has a  
>habit
>of doing that.
>
>Mark 12-10-06: Hello Dan.
>"When early Western investigators first read the Buddhist texts they  too
>interpreted nirvana as some kind of suicide.  There's a famous poem  that
>goes:
>While living,
>Be a dead man.
>Be completely dead,
>And  then do as you please.
>And all will be well.
>It sounds like something from  a Hollywood horror-film but it's about
>nirvana.  The Metaphysics of  Quality translates it:
>While sustaining biological and social  patterns
>Kill all intellectual patterns.
>Kill them completely
>And then  follow Dynamic Quality
>And morality will be served." (Lila. ch. 32)
>I think Pirsig may have got this wrong.
>The Buddha was undermining the severe ritualistic nature of his culture, so
>in his time it is social patterns of religious ritual he is undermining.
>So, the MoQ would translate:
>"While sustaining biological  patterns
>Kill all social patterns.
>Kill them completely
>And then  follow Dynamic Quality
>And morality will be served."
>Intellectual quality doesn't come into it until later.

Hi Mark

Buddhism evolves severely ritualist social patterns of its own as it 
migrates around the globe. I'm sure RMP mentions that in LILA. Be that as it 
may, the Buddha used spoken language skills to tell others of his discovery 
so it would seem by such use of language he was manipulating abstract 
symbols. Thus intellectual quality does come in, imo.

>
> >The  Buddha never knew of Calculus - ASM.
> >The People the Buddha attacked with  his arguments were those so stuck in
> >IRL
> >- thinking of this  description - that the sq patterns of IRL were the
> >source
> >of much  pain and suffering. So to dissipate them is a release, a dying, 
>a
> >killing  of the source of pain.
>
>Dan:
>I think you're reading the quote in a way that leads one in  circles.
>
>Mark 12-10-06: I'm reading the quote in the context of evolution. Evolution
>tells us there was a time when intellectual patterns did not exist.
>I don't see how this is circular. It's easy to make statements like the one
>you make here and just leave it hanging in the air like i'm supposed to 
>think
>you're being very esoteric.

You're taking a very simple quote and intellectualizing it into something 
that runs on and on like a monkey chasing a monkey. If that seems esoteric, 
well, then I guess it is esoteric.

>
> >As such, it is also a leap in Dynamic  growth toward freedom.
> >The point is not to sustain a Dynamic point of  view, but to use a 
>Dynamic
> >point of view to initiate change.
>
>Dan:
>"And then follow Dynamic Quality" is freedom, according to the  MOQ.
>
>Mark 12-10-06: Agreed. And today we can free up intellectual patterns  
>also.
>The question is, 'How does living a completely free unpatterned life  
>sustain
>itself'?

It doesn't, so far as I know. Thus Mr. Pirsig's point in translating the 
quote to Quality terms.

>
> >
> >Dan:
> >Intellectual patterns of value  obscure Dynamic Quality.
> >
> >Mark 11-10-06:
> >Do they?
>
>Dan:
>I think so.
>
> >But do they though?
>
>Dan:
>You're obscuring Dynamic Quality right now.
>
>Mark 12-10-06: I'm doing my best to point at emphasise it within the  MoQ.

Me too.

>
> >Now we are in the realm of ASM and NOT IRL.
> >Killing ASM  patterns is a source of intuitive freedom to advance the
> >quality
> >of the ASM repertoire itself - creativity, which is  moral.
>
>Dan:
>I sit and the grass grows on its own. What I mean to say is,  creativity 
>(for
>me) isn't the abstract manipulation of symbols so much as it  is letting 
>go.
>I don't know where "it" comes from. Do you?
>
>Mark 12-10-06: One typo and that becomes, 'I shit and the grass grows'  
>which
>has a scientific irony to it.
>If you've just laghed you may have found  it?

Ho ho ho.

>
>
> >
> >Dan:
> >I think the  above quote has to do with the practice of stilling the
> >internal
> >dialogue we all have going on inside our heads. When the  dialogue  
>becomes
> >quiet, the thinking that normally obscures Dynamic  Quality also ceases  
>and
> >"it"
> >shines  through.
> >
> >Mark 11-10-06: Exactly, but our, 'Internal dialogue' has  two components,
> >IRL
> >and ASM.
>
>Dan:
>You are intellectualizing too much here Mark. Just stop thinking so  much!
>
>Mark 12-10-06: Straight after writing here i'm going to settle down and
>avoid all thinking. It's been a swine of a day!

Ho ho ho.

>
>
> >DQ is death -  nothing - no patterns.
>
>Dan:
>Is death better?
>
>Mark 12-10-06: I think it's useful. Most  useful.

As a guide, yes, I agree. But I don't think the MOQ says death is better 
than life.

Thank you for your comments,

Dan