[MD] The Fringe Factor

[Micah]

Gav,

I agree 100%! They are only mental concepts. 

Micah

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On Behalf Of gav
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 3:55 PM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] The Fringe Factor


micah,
the past exists only in our minds; along with the
future.
 
experienced reality is occuring now, eternally.

gav

--- Micah <micah at roarkplumbing.com> wrote:

> Gav,
> 
> The past is part of reality.
> 
> Micah
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On Behalf Of
> gav
> Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 7:51 PM
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] The Fringe Factor
> 
> 
> I repeat - nothing can be shown to exist independent
> > of humans. "Shown",
> > "evidence", "proof" imply humans
> 
> does this mean nothing existed before humans?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> if so
> --- Micah <micah at roarkplumbing.com> wrote:
> 
> > Platt,
> > 
> > If you die tonight, could you prove that your cat
> > exists?
> > 
> > If your cat gets burned and yowls, what kind of
> pain
> > is he feeling? Searing,
> > stabbing, tingling, aching? Since it is clear to
> you
> > the pain he is feeling,
> > please describe the pain in detail. And while
> you're
> > at it, I'm thinking of
> > a number between 1 and 100 - which number is it?
> > Since you can read cats
> > minds, humans minds should be easy. Here's a hint
> -
> > it's a high number.
> > 
> > Yes, I am an egoist. An egotist would assume to
> know
> > the thoughts of other
> > animals, after assuming that they had thoughts. I
> > don't.
> > 
> > I don't believe in god, however I do know that the
> > past is part of man's
> > reality.
> > 
> > This is not either/or. Reality does not exist
> > without us, and we do not
> > control reality.
> > 
> > I repeat - nothing can be shown to exist
> independent
> > of humans. "Shown",
> > "evidence", "proof" imply humans.
> > 
> > To believe that something exists without evidence,
> > or proof is called faith.
> > I don't have a faith, but apparently you do.
> > 
> > 
> > Micah
> > 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
> > [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On Behalf
> Of
> > pholden at davtv.com
> > Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 5:29 PM
> > To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > Subject: Re: [MD] The Fringe Factor
> > 
> > 
> > Quoting Micah <micah at roarkplumbing.com>:
> > 
> > > Platt,
> > >
> > > We know your cat has freedom. Freedom is a human
> > mental concept; not only
> > > does your cat not know it has freedom - it
> simply
> > doesn't know. Knowing is
> > > another human mental concept.
> > >
> > > Here's an analogy -
> > >
> > > If I have a fire and in the fire is a rock and
> the
> > fire has been burning
> > for
> > > an hour - is the rock hot?
> > >
> > > No - the rock is not hot, it is not anything but
> a
> > rock. You are hot when
> > > you touch the rock and you may say the rock is
> > hot, but the rock doesn't
> > > know what hot is. It is a rock. The rock's
> > molecules have moved apart and
> > > are moving, and a thermostat may read a high
> > temperature, but the rock is
> > > not hot. Hot is a mental concept we have and
> have
> > placed on the rock. That
> > > is an example of anthropomorphizing. Saying
> > animals think is the same. We
> > > think, and anthropomorphize the universe.
> > >
> > > Think is an extremely complex concept. If
> animals
> > think, that would
> > include,
> > > jealousy, whimsy, wistfulness, melancholy,
> > outrage, empathy,
> > deliriousness,
> > > longing, to name but a few. How can animals that
> > "think" remain static?
> > >
> > > You may say, my cat thinks but in a limited
> range.
> > You have decided your
> > cat
> > > "thinks" and even his range of thought, but your
> > not anthropomorphizing?
> > >
> > > Can you begin to see that man is the measure of
> > all things?
> > >
> > > Micah
> > 
> > My cat doesn't think by manipulating symbols and
> > forming concepts like
> > humans do.
> > But, it's clear it is aware and that it
> experiences.
> > It will avoid a
> > hot rock and will yowl in pain if burned just as
> you
> > and I will. To believe
> > my cat exists because I observe him (idealism) is
> > the height of human
> > egocentricity. If I die tonight, my cat will still
> > demand to be fed in the
> > morning.The world was here long before you and I
> > arrived on the scene
> > and will continue long after we are gone.  The
> > evidence is conclusive that
> > existence exists on its own, not by our
> permission,
> > unless you believe that
> > God
> > planted skeletons and other fossils just to fool
> > everybody, or that the dead
> > are
> > still observing us from on high. Man is the
> measure
> > of a lot, but not
> > everything.
> > But, I could be wrong.
> > 
> > Best,
> > Platt
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
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