[MD] A formalised Code of Art

[Dan Glover]

Hello everyone

>From: Squonkonguitar at aol.com
>Reply-To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>Subject: Re: [MD] A formalised Code of Art
>Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 16:49:53 EDT
>
> >If this is a Zen poem it doesn't change the  circumstances of culture the
> >Buddha was born into.
>
>The way I  understand it the Buddha was born into a wealthy family and his
>father  purposely kept him from seeing the "real" world outside the family
>compound.  When the Buddha did discover the suffering it troubled him so
>greatly that  he left his family and the wealth that was rightfully his and
>set out  looking for answers. After many travails and dangers he finally
>realized  that there were no teachers who could answer his questions. He 
>had
>to look  inside himself. And he awoke one day. It is a timeless story that
>transcends  culture, imo.
>
>Mark 15-10-06c: The story may or may not transcend, but there are saying
>attributed to the Buddha which carefully challenge the particular cultural
>rituals of his day.

Hi Mark

I would guess the Buddha did address particular cultural rituals in his 
daily teachings yet many people today use the Buddha's teachings too. The 
teachings transcend cultural boundaries (I think).

>
> >2. The MoQ  translation of the poem.
> >OK so far  Dan?
>
>Conditionally.
>
> >A. If Lila is, 'Intellectually she's  nowhere' (Lila) then she can't kill
> >intellectual patterns. And yet, the  MoQ translation is introduced at the
> >point
> >where Lila's need for  ritual is being discussed.
>
>Dan:
>"It was the first time he'd ever seen her look down like that.  That's what
>was so sad to see. The thing that was most attractive about her  was that
>straight-forward, eyes-ahead look of someone who's honest to  themself,
>whatever others might think. Now that was gone. It meant she was  turning
>back to the static patterns she came from. She's sold out. The  system beat
>her. It's made a crook out of her at last." (LILA)
>
>Note  the phrase "someone who's honest to themself, whatever others might
>think."  Lila has an honest intellectual respect for herself and that's 
>what
>makes  her so attractive to Phaedrus. Now she is reverting to the static
>patterns  of value that she came from - static social patterns of value 
>that
>hold Lila  in place and keep her from believing in herself. Patterns that 
>say
>she is  intellectually nowhere. But Lila thinks for herself! At least, she
>did.
>
>Mark 15-10-06c: I think you're stretching things a bit here Dan.
>Lila may be Dynamic but i don't see where her intellectual patterns are
>coming from.

If we look at her ideas, her sense of values (no matter that they were 
distorted) while discussing her Florida adventurers with the Captain 
compared to her behavior while clutching the doll in a senseless trance, she 
has regressed to a set of very basic instincts, like motherhood. That is why 
Phaedrus brings up the Buddhist poem. She is still eating, still functioning 
on a biological and very basic social level but not at all on the 
intellectual level - she isn't speaking. That part of her is gone. Her life 
is breaking up.

>
>Mark 15-10-06c: Wait a moment. This is becoming daft. You stated Lila was
>your support, and later you state that RMP's translation is one among many. 
>So
>you're accepting there are alternatives.
>If you feel you have identified a definitive translation please let me  
>know.
>If there is no definitive translation that's an end to  it.

With zen koans the answer goes on and on. I happen to agree with what RMP 
says in LILA and there are other equally valid explanations too. I think 
that's why he uses the poem in the first place.

Any translation is bound to be inconsistent with the original intent. Two 
equally qualified translators may use completely different words. Since most 
of us do not have the time or resources to learn 10th century Chinese we 
just have to trust to the goodness of the translators.

>
>
> >If the poem had been something the Buddha said, my arguments  still  
>stand.
> >And, they apply to Lila, who lacks intellectual  patterns - she can't 
>kill
> >that which she does not have.
>

I think the poem is a 10th century Chinese monk's (translated) 
interpretation of what the Buddha said. Lila isn't intentionally killing her 
intellectual patterns... she is undergoing a Dynamic shift that can result 
in either liberation or enslavement. And we know what happens in the end, 
don't we. And Lila's story... well, it's our story too.