[MD] Flying Spagetti Monsters

Mon Oct 23 10:26:05 PDT 2006

Case,

You said;

"These are the reasons I imply similarly between myself, my friends and my
family. When it comes to people, or monkeys or any living thing or anything
at all for that matter I generalize to find similarity and discriminate to
notice difference and I classify based on past experience."

If this is not a ringing endorsement for "man is the measure of all things"
I don't know what is, Thanks!

Micah

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On Behalf Of Case
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 7:00 AM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] Flying Spagetti Monsters

[Micah]
I don't attribute anything to monkeys. You do. This conversation proves we
both have consciousness. But you continue to bestow humans characteristics
on monkeys, I may become unconscious from banging my head on the desk.

[Case]
This conversation proves nothing at all about consciousness. This
conversation is a Turing test and so far you are not doing all that well.

What I know about monkeys I know in the same way I know about anything else
that exists outside of my own head. I know they have miniaturized physical
characteristics similar to my own. They procreate in the same manner. They
have similar family and community structures. They display emotional
reactions similar to my own and for most of the same reasons.

These are the reasons I imply similarly between myself, my friends and my
family. When it comes to people, or monkeys or any living thing or anything
at all for that matter I generalize to find similarity and discriminate to
notice difference and I classify based on past experience.

It's just what I do.

But then, like Platt, I could be doing it wrong.

[Case]
Let me repeat one more time with feeling:

You have no more or less reason too attribute consciousness to members of
your own species than to members of another species.

In order to examine the limits of animal consciousness various techniques
both observational and experimental have been used. This applied to our
effort to understand human as well as animal awareness.

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Micah
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 4:14 PM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] Flying Spagetti Monsters

Case,

What do other animals call their behavior?

Is Gordon Gallup a human? If so, how was that monkey acting independent of
humans? Did the monkey set up the experiment, or did a human? Was the mirror
man-made or animal made? How about the rouge?

The question was; is there evidence of animals holding concepts independent
of man?

Micah

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On Behalf Of Case
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 1:44 PM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] Flying Spagetti Monsters

[Micah]
The term "human self consciousness" is redundant. "Self consciousness" is a
human concept, that applies only to humans. Is there evidence of animals
holding concepts, independent of man?

Rhetorical question, as nothing can be shown to exist independent of humans.
Man is the measure of all things.

And that sets us apart. Let your confusion end.

[Case]
Attempts to show that man is "special" are historical, persistent and
ultimately failed. You have no more or less reason too attribute
consciousness to members of your own species than to members of another
species. There is plenty of evidence that "consciousness" is a function of
the ratio of brain to body weight and that other animals display behaviors
that we would call conscious if we saw then in homo sapiens.

As for evidence there is Gordon Gallup's work where a dot of rouge was put
on the forehead of an anesthetized chimp. When the chimp saw it's image in
the mirror it reached to touch its own forehead to examine the dot.

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