[MD] Intellect battles the (immigrant) barbarians

[Arlo Bensinger]

[Ham]
May I chime in here?

[Arlo]
You're quite welcome to chime in.

With regards to this conversation, then, there is no "moral" aspect to 
veils and tops, and both laws to either could be seen as "moral" within a 
cultural-dominant setting where the majority has determined that 
concealment should occur. In Iran, then, its moral for them to force women 
to wear veils. In American, its moral for us to force women to wear tops. 
The real issue, as you see it, is when they come here, or we go there.

Here in America, since we don't have a problem with faces, we won't 
criminalize the exposure of faces, should even the Muslim woman rebel and 
go veil-less. But you want to take this a step further and demand that they 
never wear veils when they are here. I assume then you'd also argue that 
any American woman traveling to a Muslim country should HAVE to wear a 
veil. Correct?

[Ham]
they have a moral (and legal) obligation to learn the language, obey the 
laws, and follow the dress code of their adopted country.

[Arlo]
To clarify, Americans living in other countries should also do all these 
things?

And your point is that everyone should adopt the cultural practices of 
wherever they live, even if they believe differently?

[Ham]
It's the tradition that women are subservient to men and should not exhibit 
themselves as equal to men.

[Arlo]
Veils make women unequal, but tops do not? Can you explain that? Aren't 
both the forcible concealment of a body part of one sex, based on the 
sexual proclivities of the other?

[Ham]
Understandably, it is considered rude and offensive in Europe and America 
for individuals to hide themselves when relating to others.

[Arlo]
Why is the "understandably"?  Why then do other cultures not see it 
"understandably"? We are smart and they are stupid?

[Ham]
We are an open society; we want to see the faces of those we deal 
with.  (Would you do business with a customer who approached you wearing a 
mask?)

[Arlo]
We do all the time. Here in the forum, and in online shops. Do you want to 
see my face, Ham? Does it matter? I'm partnering as we speak for design 
work for people in West Virginia. I've never seen their faces, and they've 
never seen mine. No one has any problem with this.

[Ham]
When women from an Islamic country that is known to harbor terrorists 
isolate themselves from society in this way, it is looked upon as 
secretive, uncivil, perhaps threatening behavior.  We would have similar 
problems with the Amish here in Pennsylvania, except that they run their 
own schools and businesses, and have earned respect as a peaceful people.

[Arlo]
So the real issue is not that everyone assimilate, just those ones we are 
afraid of. I'm not sure what the Jewish population in Sweden is (the 
country of question from Platt's initial email), but I imagine its not the 
majority. Should Jewish immigrants be banned from wearing kippots? Or do I 
correctly assume that since we are not afraid of Jews, they can wear 
whatever they want.

[Ham]
My personal opinion is that the U.S. should not grant citizenship to any 
immigrant who refuses to adapt to American culture -- even if the customs 
they insist on following have a religious basis.

[Arlo]
So much for Tibetan Buddhists moving to America... or would they be allowed 
to keep their customs?

[Ham]
Freedom is the right of naturalized Americans, not would-be immigrants

[Arlo]
 From the horse's mouth.

[Ham]
we have the right (and the responsibility) to refuse anyone who cannot 
accept our moral and social standards.

[Arlo]
I pity that future world.

[Ham]
Until the Islamists are willing to assimilate, the problem isn't ours but 
theirs.  As I see it the ball is in their court.

[Arlo]
You mean until they renounce Islam, or at least stop practicing it.