[MD] Crystallising Chaos.

[Case]

Mark: Interesting.
If we partake of sq we are never going to completely escape it and so will  
be free in only a narrow sense.
The example i always think of is this: We can't grow an extra biological arm
no matter how much we want one.
But, at the intellectual level we can drop patterns in creative leaps, and i
think that is freedom of a high magnitude.
Any situation that is fluid and fine edged is where it's at - the finer the
edge the higher the degree of unmediated manipulation.
That's what i call coherence.

[Case]
Pretty much. In my Walden Pond example notice that all the interesting stuff
happens on the surface, the two dimensional edge. It is on surfaces that
distinctions are drawn. The surface separates one thing from another. Wilbur
makes this point badly when he says that one of the fundamental distinctions
(metaphysical cuts if you will) is between inside and outside. I say he
makes this point badly because the distinction is between one side and the
other. In and out are relationships of a different sort.

Mark: There is an idea mooted in the first of these threads which suggests
that chaos as an initial state was transformed into order by DQ by
introducing a self similar harmonic. Can this work in your opinion?

[Case]
Absolutely, with qualification. First the absolutely part: I tend to see
this stuff in pretty concrete terms. Let's stick with another liquid
example. If you are sitting in your car and it starts to rain, water
droplets will form on the windshield. As the drops come together they will
start to flow down the glass. Where these flows occur and how they are
shaped are functions of where the drops land and what obstacles, from
imperfections in the glass to dust to dead bugs, block their path. Sometimes
smaller streamlets will divert off the main path and flow in branching
patterns or small streams higher up will merge into larger ones as they flow
down. You can see this same sort of thing from space in the river systems of
the world. Water is a dynamic fluid. When it flows it follows the path of
least resistance. Often this involves a rather convoluted tracing as the
flow has to go around static structures in its path.

Notice though, this same branching, self similar pattern occurs through out
nature wherever dynamic energy dissipates through static systems; in rivers
and streams of course also lightening. OR look at the edge of the stain if
you drop grape juice on a paper napkin. It shows up in three dimensions in
the form of trees both in the structure of their leaves and branches
absorbing sunlight and the roots sucking water and nutrients from the
ground. Inside the bodies of animals the lungs, blood stream and nervous
system all have this same shape and function of distributing or absorbing
dynamic energy through static systems. It is even manifest in four
dimensions as you look at evolutionary history or family genealogies you see
branching merging and separating structures self similar across scale. Or in
the structure of these MoQ discussions were topics expand and fracture, grow
and die.

My qualifications come in with your statement: "... chaos as an initial
state was transformed into order by DQ by introducing a self similar
harmonic."  You probably aren't really implying this but it suggests two
things to me. First that this happened, past tense, I think it happens
constantly it is in the very nature of change. Also the transformation is
never complete. Static often dissolves in to the dynamic. As Robert Plant
put it: "When the levy breaks you got nowhere to go."
Second it suggests that DQ actively almost intentionally does this. I see
this as just the way it works out, unpredictable, spontaneous and marvelous
all at the same time.

Mark: OK.
Organic patterns appear to fight against the Inorganic relationships. Would
you agree?

[Case]
I see how it can be viewed that way but I prefer not to think of it is a
struggle. Rather, I think of it as opportunism run amuck. Cool stuff
happening because, it can, within environmental constraints.

Mark: I may be wrong, but i think we can leave DQ/sq and four evolutionary  
related levels alone AND do some tweaking.
It's become clear to me that all my talk of coherence is an attempt to
describe DQ in terms of sq.
But as Pirsig attempts to describe Quality in terms of DQ and sq i think it

was only a matter of time before someone did anyway?

[Case]
If the MoQ stopped with Pirsig it would not be very dynamic would it?

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[Case]
I would love to get a sample of your guitar sound. Infinite sustain? Zowie!
What you describe sounds a bit like those guitars Roland had a while back
that somehow synthesized the analog notes. Is yours anything like that?