[MD] Flying Spagetti Monsters

[ARLO J BENSINGER JR]

[Platt]
20 points for filibustering in an attempt to avoid the issue. A couple  of
instances when you voluntarily praised something specific about American (not a
generalized "it's a great country") was all that was necessary.

[Arlo]
This is utter nonsense. But give yourself the 20 points for insistence. I've
said America is a great place, and any interested party can peruse the archives
to see that your smear is only rhetorical tactics to do what you, now, seem to
accuse me of doing. If you want to sit and have a masturbatory session on how
great America is, feel free to start a thread, and I'll give you some "for
instances" there. In the meantime, the point stands, blind obedience to social
structures leads invariably to immorality. America is not, nor has ever been,
immune to this. If you can't handle this without the need for a cheerleading
session, that is your issue. Your attempts to rhetorically warp the present
discussion into "Arlo hates America" are inane.

[Platt previously]
If each man can define his own morality, I see nothing to prevent an Arab from
defining his morality as death to infidels like you and me. 

[Arlo replied]
Are you suggesting that each man should NOT define his own morality?
Interesting. But I've already addended my argument to say that the Islamic
terrorists are exactly examples of blind obedience to static social patterns.

[Platt]
It's my understanding having read Lila that morality is direct experience prior
to intellectual abstractions and thus beyond definition.

[Arlo]
So does each man define his own morality or not?

[Platt]
How can I give legitimacy to the likes of Rosie O'Donnel and Babs Streisand?

[Arlo]
Start with the question, has America ever behaved immorally in enacting her
foreign policies. When you're done with the cheerleading crusade, maybe we can
move to legitamte solutions. 

[Platt]
You just can't help doing an MBOA can you? Atrocities? Most Indians died of
diseases that were inadvertently carried to the New World by Europeans.

[Arlo]
Even if "most indians" died from inadvertant infection, this belies the idea
that none were killed in immoral violence in wars of conquest. Many were. And
that is my point.

The bottom line is this, and I think I am now done with it. I stated that "blind
obedience to static social structures invariably leads to immorality". I stated
this in response to the argument that either "theism" or "atheism" were
responsible for historical atrocities. In examining a few, I suggest the Indian
Wars, Pol Pot, the Inquisition and the holocaust as historical exemplars of
immorality deriving from blind obedience to church or state.

To this, the mere mention that America has EVER committed an immoral act, you've
done nothing but attempt to somehow show that "Arlo hates America". As I said
last time, sorry if the mere suggestion of immorality occuring at our hands
offends your absolute apologistic stance. Your attempt to rhetorically distort
the argument to suggest that there are only two stances, yours where America
can do nor has done nothing immoral ever, and everyone else just hates America,
is absurd, but telling. I don't hate America, it is a wonderful place. But it
has acted immorally, and will act immorally so long as people like you demand
blind obedience. The historical record is there. Your desperate clinging to
hyper-nationalism, coupled with your need to vilify even the slightest
criticism of the state, has made this conversation perverse. 

Not to mention that you don't condemn my bringing up of the Inquisition as
"bashing Spain", or Pol Pot as "bashing Cambodia", or the holocaust as "bashing
Germany". Its only criticisms of America that upset the cheerleader. And that
speaks volumes.

[Arlo previously]
By the way, you offered an answer a few posts back that you would kill a little
girl on the street, in battle, if ordered to do so because she might be
carrying a bomb. What if you later learned she was not? That she was on the way
to the market to get something for her father for dinner? Would the fact "you
were only following orders" absolve your actions of immorality? Would that
assuage any guilt you might feel?

[Platt]
I would certainly feel bad about the mistake.

[Arlo]
I'm sure that will ease her father's suffering.

[Platt]
Is that a positive rejection of forced redistribution of wealth from the rich to
the poor?

[Arlo]
I rejected the premise of Marx's statement, isn't that what you wanted?

[Platt]
What are "capistocratic principles?" Principles of a free market? I suggest you
refuse to pay taxes to learn what force is.

[Arlo]
And round we go. We've had this conversation, why repeat it or pretend it never
occured? Taxes are a privilege for the wonderful infrastructure we all enjoy,
from libraries to public lands, from EMT to police protection, from public
highways to public waterways, from soup kitchens to temporary relief from
financial catastrophe, all these are things I gladly and willingly pay for. Are
some of the actualities broken? Absolutely. Are there instances of abuse?
Absolutely. Should we work on fixing these? Absolutely. Does that make me feel
taxation are bad? Absolutely not. 

[Arlo previously]
As for Rush, I'm sure you've listened enough to know if you can recall any time
you've ever disagreed with him. Will you offer that now?

[Platt] 
Obviously you listen all the time. Tell me what he says and I'll tell you if I
agree or not.

[Arlo]
Didn't think you'd answer.

And so I'm bowing out of this, as its so far from what I said its pointless to
continue. If you want to either start a cheerleading thread, or continue to
insinuate through hyper-nationalism that any criticism of the state makes one
"unpatriotic" or somehow unappreciative, go right ahread. Its too foolish for
me to respond to any longer. 

Blind obedience to static social structures, church or state, has been the
reason behind the historical atrocities mentioned; Inquisition, Indian Wars,
Pol Pot and the Holocaust, as some examples. Case has suggested My Lai, and
I've suggested the atomic bombs as other examples of immorality derived from
blind obedience to social structures (coupled often as you evidence with blind
acriticality and hyper-nationalism). We can reasonably debate the immorality of
particular events, but I think it is fairly undeniable from the historic record
that blind obedience leads invariably to immorality, and those who think
America is immune, simply because we are America, are only engaging in
masturbatory patriotism. And will lead us, as a nation, to commit further
immoral acts.