[MD] are theism and mysticism mutually exclusive notions?

[david buchanan]

Glove said:
I think we can safely say that the theistic person wishes to be other than 
they are in everyday life; they strive to make themselves better by 
approaching models of the devine revealed in myth. ...

dmb says:
Well, I'm talking about various metaphysical assertions, various concepts 
about God and such. I don't think anybody would deny that, historically, the 
Church did a good job in asserting social level morals over the biological 
values. That's what civilization is all about; fertility and security. And 
today it can do wonders as a kind of self-improvement program, as a kind of 
12-step program. But even on this level of analysis, I don't think its safe 
to say "the theist" is necessarily trying "to make themselves better". Like 
I said already, theism "really rears its ugly head on the conventional 
level. This is where the blood gets spilt over rival concepts of god. We can 
see that even though Judaism, Islam and Christianity are all monotheistic, 
dualistic religions there are still plenty of believers who are willing to 
fight for one concept of god over the others. (snip current examples) 
...This is a ridiculous and extremely dangerous situation. So I'm saying 
that theism, even on a pragmatic level, is a pretty serious problem."

dmb said previously:
...We looked at work of "The Jesus Seminar", a large group of scholars who 
set out to determine, through testual analysis, what the historical Jesus 
actually said.

Dan replied:
This is assuming there was a historical Jesus to actually say something, of 
course. I am sure you know there's not one single shred of evidence to prove 
such a man ever lived. Everything we know about Jesus is hearsay. So tell 
me: can a person who never existed actually say something?

dmb says:
Good point. Personally, I don't think its very important whether or not 
there was an historical Jesus. And it seems there is a lot of confusion 
about the difference between history and myth in the traditional churches. 
Beliefs about the pending apocalypse stem from this confusion, for example. 
Anyway, the majority of Jesus Seminarians were of the opinion that there was 
an historic Jesus, but there are certainly some dissenters on this point. 
But they all operate on the assumption that all texts, all books, were 
written by people.

Dan said:
...I think it's interesting to note that even in professed atheists many 
scenarios of initiation still exist. They stagger under a whole pile of 
pseudo-religious paraphernalia that has degenerated into something hard to 
recognize for what it is, but it's there nonetheless.

dmb says:
Yea, people need ritual and myth and they get it where they can. As I 
understand the present sad state of affairs, the rituals and symbols and 
myths of a culture have become obsolete and can no longer function. Its not 
just that its hard to believe in a literal Heaven in the Space Age, although 
that's certainly a huge part of it, there is also the issue of confused 
morality. See, the traditional religions were a positive and crucial moral 
force in taming the biological impulses and most of its moral values are 
aimed at that. The seven deadly sins, for example. But, because the 
intellectual level has evolved and become its own distinct level of 
morality, history has put this moral force in an inferior position. And she 
doesn't like it one bit. She fights back now and blood is spilt. These 
traditional moral values, the ones that are rightly supposed to assert 
social values over biological ones, are now too oftern used to reisist and 
suppress intellectual values. The good guy keeps doing what he's doing, but 
history and evolution has moved on in such a way that the very same activity 
is now evil instead of good.

Dan told a story:
Mu-on was a great teacher. It was the custom in those days for zen masters 
to have only one student. His student was a monk named Shu-on. One day Mu-on 
called his student before him and bade him sit. I am growing old, he told 
Shu-on, and I feel that soon I will no longer walk this earth. Therefore it 
is time that I pass this on to you. And he handed Shu-on a journal.

Shu-on objected. You have taught me all I need to know. Why are you giving 
me this book? I have no need of it. Please keep it, master. Mu-on explained 
that the journal was 7 generations old and that as he himself had done, each 
of his predecessors too had added their own thoughts to the book over the 
centuries. Putting the journal in his hands, he told Shu-on: It is now yours 
to do with what you wish. Shu-on got up and walking to the fire he thrust 
the journal into the midst of the hot coals. Startled and angry, Mu-on 
jumped to his feet and shouted: What are you doing? Shu-on shouted back: 
What are you saying?

dmb says:
Let me take a guess as to what Mu-on was saying when he jumped to his feet 
and asked Shu-on what he was doing. He was saying, "Shuon, buddy dude, the 
fact that you are willing to destroy my life's work and turn seven 
generations of wisdom into ash shows that you most certainly have not 
learned everything you need to know, you morally retarded vandal you."

Or have I missed the point?

Gotta go. I'm meeting some friends and associates at the library this 
afternoon. Anybody happen to know what a person should wear to a book 
burning? I'm thinking a brown shirt would look pretty good with my 
jackboots, but the trousers have me stumped.

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