[MD] Altruism

[Ben Golden]

[Ham]
You have defined the moral enigma very well, and it explains why I am a 
moral relativist.

[Ben]
I was quite surprised to see someone self-identify as a moral relativist and 
then appear to speak favorably of Ayn Rand.  Isn't the whole point of 
objectivism that morality is not subjective/relative?  I thought Rand's 
critique of moral relativist/existentialist thinking was the best part of 
Atlas.

[Craig]
Rand's definition of 'altruism': sacrificing one's own values for those of 
others'.  My interpretation of your definition: being considerate of others' 
interests/rights. Rand's industrialists were not altruistic, even by your 
definition.  Their end was to maximize profit.  That everyone benefitted was 
only a means to that end, not the aim itself.  Those industrialists didn't 
want government to operate in their interest.  What they wanted was a system 
where they were free to succeed & would be justly rewarded when they were.

[Ben]
My definition of altruism is maximize net utility.  Predict the results of 
various courses of action; the one that has the greatest net gain/least net 
loss is the most altruistic.  Now you make an important distinction, which 
is intention vs. result.  If one's intention is selfish but the result of 
their action is altruistic, then are they an altruist or not?  Rand seems to 
condemn people who claim to act altruistically, but where the result in her 
analysis clearly is not altruistic.  For instance, by nationalizing a 
private company and redistributing wealth evenly, a government appears to 
act altruistically.  In truth though, this is an inaltruistic thing to do, 
since in the long run the country is hurt by this action.  At the same time 
Rand praises the industrialists who, while being accused of acting selfishly 
(by maximizing profits) in fact are acting quite altruistically (by 
developing new products and selling them at reasonable prices).  Rand is 
thus critical of people who act with altruistic intentions, but she's 
consisting devoted to individuals and policies that promote altruistic ends.

[Ham, repeated by Platt]
1. Because man values his own life above all, it is the nature of man to be 
selfish.  Therefore selfishness cannot be immoral.

[Ben]
This can mean one of two things.  Either selfishness is always moral or 
selfishness is not always immoral.  If it's the first, I'd use murder as an 
obvious counter example.  If it's the second, I'd agree, but it's a pretty 
weak statement.

[Ham, repeated by Platt]
2. Altruism implies paternalism -- the assumption that the individual knows 
the interests of others better than they do themselves.  This fosters 
dependence on the part of others and works against the altruist's natural 
self-interest.

[Platt]
It's always amazed me that someone could be so egoistic as to think she 
knows what would be good for somebody else.

[Ben]
Your argument seems to read that any attempt to make someone else's life 
better will actually make it worse.  While I agree that some such cases 
occured, such as the Inquisition, I think the evidence strongly points 
against your prediction.  Or are you saying that no one should give to 
charity?  I oppose most "altruistic" public policy not because I oppose the 
altruism behind it, but because most of these policies just aren't efficient 
ways to accomplish what they're trying to do.

[Ham, repeated by Platt]
3. As applied to society, altruism establishes an artificial morality which 
reduces individual motivation, minimizes the value of his contributions, and 
stifles development of his sense of moral goodness.

[Ben]
There are altruistic policies that do indeed reduce the incentive to be 
productive.  There are also altruistic policies that help provide the 
education required to become productive.

4. Man is a self-determinate creature with the freedom to choose the values 
by which he lives.  Since morality is contingent upon related conditions, a 
"fixed" behavior-based morality system thwarts individual freedom.

[Ben]
Does fixed just mean static?  I'm assuming you're advocating a non-fixed 
morality system and not no morality system.  I agree that flexibility is an 
important part of any system of morality.  But I'm not sure altruism is all 
that inflexible.

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