[MD] Flying Spagetti Monsters

[Laycock, Jos (OSPT)]

 Platt:
But can we agree that what someone thinks about art, business or 
> politics is not
> dependent on inorganic or biological patterns? In other 
> words, no tinkering 
> with brain chemistry can turn a socialist into a conservative?  

No sorry, we can't agree on that one, memories, thoughts, and beliefs,
permeate all static levels thus they are dependent on all static levels, its
true that in the brain there is a great deal of redundancy and so patterns
are very stable, addition of one neurotransmitter (or artificial analogue)
over a short timeframe may affect the function of a particular region or
cell type but it has no profound efect as the pattern is preserved
throughout a whole range of other brain machinery/chemistry.
Long term exposure to drugs has been shown to affect personality however,
especially "dirty" drugs that include many different active compounds.
Traumatic brain injuries also frequently result in pesonality shifts.
To effect the kind of specific changes you refer to above would require a
highly sophisticated nano scale targeted drug administration pattern way
beyond what modern medicine is capable of, but that's not to say it's
impossible.

Platt on animals:
"since all their choices
> are governed by biological instincts"

You state this as a fact to support the assertion that animals have no free
will, but I'm sure you can see that its circular.
I can equally well say that animals have free will because they undertake
many actions outside of those brought about by biological urges.

The animal question, will not be resolved, they are certainly limited in
their ability to explain their motives to either of us so there seems little
point discussing. My experience with various species is that animals can be
highly sentient and display a range of traits that others regard as solely
the preserve of humans. You have a diffent view and thats fine, but both
arguments are self fulfilling, to me its a question better resolved by
obsevation of life than thought experiment. Afterall no test can really
demonstrate that another human is not an simply a complex automaton (perhaps
we all are).

 

> > "People are 
> > > harder to define, being at times biological, at other times 
> > > social, and
> > > occasionally intellectual." 
> > IMHO a person is all things all at once, our actions though 
> can be placed
> > within particular levels. 
> 
> Agree. That's what I meant by "at times." 
> 
> > The chemical burn examople can be changed as I see any 
> reference to eating
> > makes it a biological issue in your eyes, how about sunburn: 
> > I can choose to stay in UV light for nine hours, it causes 
> inorganic damage
> > to the cells in my skin, its a bad decision and one that 
> runs against the
> > life favouring morality that exists in the inorganic level. 
> 
> Yes, humans are unique in that they can deliberately choose 
> to live or not, or
> in your example, hurt themselves.
> 
> > Humans aren't unique in making choices that override 
> biological urges, what
> > evidence is there for this assertion? Animals also choose 
> to avoid self
> > endangering activities, they also choose to act co-operatively.
> 
> I don't agree that animals can override biological urges 
> since all their choices
> are governed by biological instincts. They act purposefully 
> but not with
> forethought as to the consequences of their behavior. They 
> are not beneficiaries
> of free will.
> 
> > In a further
> > blurring of the distinction, many humans are entirely 
> unable to resist
> > biological urges and excercise no choice whatsoever, hence 
> the chronic
> > obesity problems that sweep the world today, and all other addictive
> > behaviours.
> 
> As proved every day, people can overcome their addictions. I 
> happen to know
> several alcoholics who haven't had a drink in 20 years. I 
> also know people who
> have lost weight and kept it off. Same for smokers who no 
> longer smoke. So
> I don't buy this "entirely unable to resist biological urges 
> bit," i.e., the
> "I'm a helpless victim" excuse. As Katie Hepburn said to 
> Humphrey Bogart in the
> "African Queen" when Bogart said it wasn't natural not to 
> have a drink of booze
> now and then  -- "Nature, Mr. Alnut, was what we were put on 
> this earth to rise above."
> 
> Platt
>

>  
> 
> -------------------------------------------------
> This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/
> moq_discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
> 
> PLEASE NOTE: THE ABOVE MESSAGE WAS RECEIVED FROM THE INTERNET.
> On entering the GSI, this email was scanned for viruses by 
> the Government Secure Intranet (GSi) virus scanning service 
> supplied exclusively by Cable & Wireless in partnership with 
> MessageLabs.
> In case of problems, please call your organisational IT Helpdesk.
> The MessageLabs Anti Virus Service is the first managed 
> service to achieve the CSIA Claims Tested Mark (CCTM 
> Certificate Number 2006/04/0007), the UK Government quality 
> mark initiative for information security products and 
> services.  For more information about this please visit 
www.cctmark.gov.uk


This e-mail (and any attachment) is intended only for the attention of the
addressee(s). Its unauthorised use, disclosure, storage or copying is not
permitted. If you are not the intended recipient, please destroy all copies
and inform the sender by return e-mail.

Internet e-mail is not a secure medium. Any reply to this message could be
intercepted and read by someone else. Please bear that in mind when deciding
whether to send material in response to this message by e-mail.

This e-mail (whether you are the sender or the recipient) may be monitored,
recorded and retained by the Department For Constitutional Affairs. E-mail
monitoring / blocking software may be used, and e-mail content may be read
at any time. You have a responsibility to ensure laws are not broken when
composing or forwarding e-mails and their contents.



The original of this email was scanned for viruses by Government Secure Intranet (GSi)  virus scanning service supplied exclusively by Cable & Wireless in partnership with MessageLabs.
On leaving the GSI this email was certified virus free.
The MessageLabs Anti Virus Service is the first managed service to achieve the CSIA Claims Tested Mark (CCTM Certificate Number 2006/04/0007), the UK Government quality mark initiative for information security products and services.  For more information about this please visit www.cctmark.gov.uk