[MD] New Model Army, Mystic(DQ) Experience, and Religion (SQ) as Power

Sat Sep 30 14:11:09 PDT 2006

Hi David M
  Right you are.  People, who have flexible minds and are curious and reflective, can adopt many religions and spirituals viewpoints simultaneously. It's probably like being a multi lingual speaker
 people that are fluent in many languages. Religious viewpoints are not mutually exclusive. Real synergy exists in the many combinations of beliefs among serious minded devotees.

  I used to think F. Nietzsche was just a godless, atheistic bastard, but upon closer inspection his philosophy seems to indicate that he was too devotedly religious at his core to conform to the irrational sop that many Christian sects try to dish out. In his own way he could not swallow what the priests were trying to shove down his throat. The general orthodoxy of the time. So he rebelled and adopted his own religion. "Nietzscheism". I find it very deep and interesting. (Priests are like Pirsig’s view of shrinks: they force you to conform, force you away from "heresy". It’s their way, or back to the locked room.)

  Additionally, the various traditions of Buddhism, traditions, which are followed by maybe a billion people on this planet.  Buddhism is or can be considered a godless, atheistic religion. Personally, I have been unable to figure out the difference between Buddhism and existentialism, if any. I'm beginning to think there is no real difference except that Buddhism traditions, being thousand of years older, are far more detailed and elaborated as philosophies. 

  The Tibetin buddhist cannon contains over 2000 texts, all coded in the Tibetin language. Only a couple dozen,if that, have been adequately translated into English. I wish I could know the things these scholarly monks know. We would be astounded. I believe it is a very powerful point of view. Who needs god (say some), just stay focused on attaining to your own personal enlightenment. Lifetime after lifetime.
  Robbie

David M <davidint at blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
  Hi DMB

You are right that the negative add-ons are not necessary.
But you seem to fail to exhibit the general indifference
I feel towards christianity as an organised religion, that is more agnostic 
in tone, & you
seem to have the passion of someone who thinks there is something very
important to grasp about atheism as if it were something more
than an attack on something else. Of course, I live in one of the most
secular societies on earth, you don't have such luck. There are great
writers/thinkers in all religious traditions it seems to me, the problems
come with dogmatism. The higher ends of religious thought can be
very interesting and contain all kinds of insights that are compatible
with the MOQ. If you had none of these add ons you would surely
see this. Not to mention all the great art inspired by religious linked
sentiment/belief. For me religion at best is an emotional-cultural
response to human experience, full of riches, it has to come to
terms with the extra insights of reason & science, and become
something new as a result of these developments. At worst
religion has just been a form of social control, hierarchy, and 
exploitation.

David M

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "david buchanan" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 12:23 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] New Model Army, Mystic(DQ) Experience,and Religion (SQ) as 
Power

> ian glendinning said to David M:
> You're right though, whilst I express atheism, it's really a non-issue for
> me, quite different to say DMB for whom it is an almost crusading issue to
> be fought at each opportunity. Which isn't to say I don't denounce 
> dogmatic
> (religious) extremism in "real life" ... I just see no point denouncing
> theism per se.
>
> dmb replies:
> Atheism is "really a non-issue" for you. Hold that thought. I'll get back
> to it in a minute. Let me just ask you about the last part, the part where
> you see "no point". I have quoted Pirsig and lots of other sources to make
> this point. Can you say anything about what you objected to or whatever? I
> mean, what part of Pirsig's anti-theism comment do you disagree with? Is
> there something about the Oxford Companion's description you'd take issue
> with? Does Joseph Campbell's explanation seem pointless for any particular
> reason? Do you dismiss Northrop's distinction between East and West 
> because
> of something in his argument or is it because its just a "crusading issue 
> to
> be fought at each opportunity" for him too? I mean, I'd like to know the
> specifics of why you see no point.
>
> Ian also said:
> And strangely it's probably the only point where I find myself at odds 
> with
> DMB. I love his thoughts (and his writing) in every other respect. Weird.
>
> dmb says:
> Really? That is weird. I find very little to agree with in your posts. And
> I'm frequently, personally offended by your remarks. I mean, 
> characterizing
> me as a crusader is a bit insulting and dismissive, don't you think?
> Crusader? How could you call me that, of all things? You know how much I
> hate Christians. Why couldn't you call me a saleman or a nag or something
> that doesn't imply any associations with those dirty rotten Christians, 
> that
> I hate, and am planning to repress, and outlaw, and anybody know where I 
> can
> get a set of blueprints for a death camp?
>
> Ian said:
> Which always makes me question whether I'm just agnostic. I always 
> conclude
> no, I'm actually atheist ... like, it's an issue important enough for me 
> to
> have a strong view on (which I clearly do).
>
> dmb says:
> You have a strong view on this important issue? I remind you that you just
> finished saying the very opposite. This is the thought I promised I'd get 
> to
> a minute ago, where you said, "atheism is a non-issue". So which position
> will you adopt a minute from now? This offends me even more than personal
> insult. I think, at least sometimes, you are quite the bullshitter.
>
> David M said previously:
> ...the materialism got dropped, and so did the atheism because it really 
> has
> no basis, and you get to see that there are experiences and possibilties 
> to
> ponder on the other side of mere disciplines, and the best appears at
> certain extremes of religious & philosophical speculation and also art and
> poetry (maybe also some rather speculative science, about creation rather
> than mere repetition).
>
> dmb says:
> Atheism has no basis? What do mean? Atheism simply denies the claims of 
> the
> theist, as a matter of fact, because they have no basis. Other than that,
> the atheist, or rather the anti-theistic stance, does not assert anything
> positive. Its even a little strange that there has to be a word to 
> describe
> the absence of a belief or assertion. As Sam Harris points out, we don't
> identify ourselves or others as people who do NOT believe in astrology or
> Zeus or Athena or anything like that. We simply don't believe in astrology
> or Zeus or Athena. We'd only make a point of it if somebody were to come
> along and say, for example, that the MOQ supports the beliefs of
> astrologers. Atheism is like that, only much bigger. And your "sentence"
> also implies that the atheist is somehow unable to ponder the sublime, 
> that
> it means being stuck on the wrong side of "mere disciplines". I mean, you
> seem to be loading the term with all sorts of negative qualities quite
> unfairly. You seem to be adding a cold-hearted, unromanitic scientism to 
> the
> concept. Maybe you're talking about your former atheist self, but these
> certainly aren't inherent parts of atheism, you know?
>
> But they would very likely reject the speculative science of "creation".
> I'll give you that one.
>
> Thanks.
> dmb
>
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