[MD] Alternatives to the scientific method

[ian glendinning]

Platt, my mind is not "made up", I have opinions about what I have
read in the past 50 years, a continuously evolving reading list from
small beginnings. "Strong opinions lightly-held" as I've expressed it
before - I'm asking you to point out what I missed ... just one thing
will do .... in Rand. I don't know everything, no-one does, so I
assume there is something you know that I don't, there must be ;-)

So "she is in favor of forbidding the initiation of force by anyone on
another" is she ?

Tell me something that is not already blindingly obvious in just about
any Randian paragraph you care to choose, and not already covered by
my summary above. She likes freedom, she doesn't like imposition of
force. She's not alone there.

But in practice (real life) force (limitations to freedom) do have to
be imposed - no ? Social over biological in Pirsigian terms ... higher
quality social patterns over other social patterns - no ? What does
Rand have to say about this other than the juvenile conclusion that
freedom is good - accept no substitute. Mill understood this much
better already.

The only other thing significant I've found Rand saying is to take
personal responsibility for your own philosophy of life - can't argue
with that either. As some fella called Socrates already said sometime
before her emigration - the unexamined life ain't worth living.

You say "Pirsig is not all that enamored of the Darwinian explanation".
Jeez - again - repeat after me - Darwin is NOT the last word in
evolutionary explanations - it's good that Pirsig (and a million other
neo-Darwinian philosophers, biologists and anthropologists) noticed
this. Darwin was "mostly right" with his survival and fitness in the
face of largely "random" change - but not "wholly right" - no-one ever
will be "wholly right". Some of the natural explanations of
evolutionary process even support what might  be described on
Lamarkian principles (there are processes by which inheritance of
acquired attributes could be said to occur, but you have to look at
the whole sexual-reproductive / development cycle). Even naturally
"intelligently directed" explanations - I mentioned already - look at
spandrels & sky-hooks, look at natural re-engineering - the processes
are awesomely many and varied on many inter-related levels across
extended phenotypes and eco-systems - including mental ones.

Don't presmue Dennett would laugh at Pirsig's moral evolutionary
drivers - when you're read "Darwin Dangerous Idea" try reading
"Breaking the Spell" and read E.O.Wilson too if you haven't already.

BTW Dennett wrote on freedom too - "Freedom Evolves" - but the he
would say that, wouldn't he, like any good Pirsigian ;-)

Ian



On 8/14/07, pholden at davtv.com <pholden at davtv.com> wrote:
> Quoting ian glendinning <psybertron at gmail.com>:
>
> > Hardly ;-)
> >
> > So nothing in particular - difference for it's own sake - another
> > binary argument ?
> > Nothing that those differences specifically adds to a better
> > understanding - of MoQ or anything else ?
> >
> > As I say I found Rand very "irrational" and totally lacking in any
> > analysis or "insight". An understandable reaction af a Russian emigre
> > to her erstwhile homeland "communism" in her new-found home of
> > "capitalism". One extreme considered only in the light of an opposing
> > extreme. So one dimensional and childishly simplistic (and dangerously
> > mis-informed / ignorant of significant wider experience) - capitalist
> > freedoms good - state interference bad - Doh !
> >
> > Did it need a million words and a dozen books to express that ?
> > Socrates, Bacon, Hume, Mill and many more ancients ... the qualities
> > of freedom and responsibility are not new concepts ... the difficult
> > bit is where values indicate limits to absolute freedom .... where the
> > rubber meets the road of real life.
>
> Obviously we have a difference of opinion as to value of Rand's work. The fact
> that her books keep selling at an unusual rate for a philosopher tells me
> she speaks to a need among the populace looking for guidance. As for absolute
> freedom, if you had read her material carefully you would know she is in favor of
> forbidding the initiation of force by anyone on another. But, there's little to
> be gained by pointing out such things since your mind is made up about the
> folly of applying her principles to "real life." So be it. You may be right.
>
> > Dennett is just one of many pragmatic philosophers (James most
> > obviously, but many) that can "add" to an understanding of Pirsig's
> > attempt at Darwinian evolutionary framework of values and the
> > processes by which conflicting demands are dealt with..
>
> I will reserve judgment on Dennett until I read the book you recommended.
> But, as you know, Pirsig is not all that enamored of the Darwinian explanation
> of evolution. I presume Dennet would laugh at Pirsig's "moral" explanation.
>
> Platt
>
>
> > On 8/14/07, pholden at davtv.com <pholden at davtv.com> wrote:
> > > Quoting ian glendinning <psybertron at gmail.com>:
> > >
> > > > Nice try Platt, I've done plenty of Randian research on the subject
> > > > .... the publishers of her books sell her philosophical resources
> > > > pretty hard .... hard to ignore.
> > > >
> > > > In your own words, why did YOU recommend "Atlas Shrugged" to a MoQ'er
> > > > - what relevant message did YOU want ME / US to get ? I remain at a
> > > > complete loss.
> > >
> > > Simple. Because it gives a different and often opposing worldview to the
> > > MOQ in highly rational form, worthy of intellectual consideration by anyone
> > > interested in philosophy. If this forum was merely a hosanna to Pirsig's
> > > metaphysics, I would have departed long ago. It is the arena of ideas that
> > > interests me, and I find Pirsig, Rand, James, Paglia, Ham and many
> > > others to have interesting insights into how the world works, just as you find
> > > Dennett and I'm sure others to be of value to you.
> > >
> > > Hope this sufficiently answers your question.
> > >
> > > Platt
> > >
>
>
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