[MD] Alternatives approaches to evolution

[David M]

Hi Ian

Any thoughts on where all the variety comes from
that natural selection is able to pcim and mix from?

It sorts of suggests that this universe is just a selection
from an infinity that already exists.

David M

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <pholden at davtv.com>
To: <moq_discuss at moqtalk.org>
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 11:05 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] Alternatives to the scientific method


> Quoting ian glendinning <psybertron at gmail.com>:
>
>> Jeez Platt, have you heard nothing of evolution since Darwin ? More
>> than a century of evidence ... he chose his language and metaphors for
>> his audience at the time.
>
> Oh no. Not the usual insult to begin a conversation. I was hoping . . .
>
>> Anyway, you are interpreting one sentence, which is open to other
>> interpretations than the purely linguistic allusions your analysis
>> suggests. Struggle yes, survival yes, in the face of "scarce
>> resources" of various kinds, but struggle can be overcome by reducing
>> barriers and dependencies, as well as brute force.
>
> Any specific examples of reducing barriers and dependencies that led to 
> new
> species?
>
>> Your "sound-bite" simplification is misleading. These are "powerful"
>> processes yes, but they do not have to exert physical power - subtley,
>> guile, creativity, keeping a low-profile, quid-pro-quo, collaborative
>> / co-evolution / symbiosis,  will do just as well .... to start making
>> any sense of examples, you need to separate the genomes (and memes)
>> from the host phenotypes - the "selfish" application of force
>> generally has little to do with the individuals of the species
>> exerting force. This was Dawkins point but like Darwin's "Survival of
>> the Fittest", his "Selfish Gene" sound-bite get's mis-used with
>> minimal understanding.
>
> Well, I open to further understanding. If you can give some concrete 
> examples
> to illustrate your or Dawkin's generalities it would help.
>
> > Have you read Dennett's "Darwin's Dangerous Idea" (for example). If
>> you haven't it would be a good place to start - he's a good writer for
>> the lay reader (like me) and meticulously balanced in acknowledging
>> the alternative views of those who would disagree with him on many
>> points - like Gould, Lewontin and others ... Dawkins writing is too
>> sure of itself IMHO, and your rhetoric would chop his down at the
>> knees in five minutes. ;-) The levels of disagreement are however many
>> levels below these sound-bite headlines. The agreement is overwhelming
>> at most levels we are discussing here.
>>
>> Variety (eco-diversity) is the spice of life.
>
> Not sure what that has to do with the subject at hand. As for Dennett, is 
> that
> the same Dennett who wrote "Consciousness Explained?" If so, I found him 
> singularly
> unenlightening. Could you give me the gist of his view in "Darwin's 
> Dangerous Idea?"
>
> Thanks,
> Platt
>
>
>
>>
>> On 8/13/07, pholden at davtv.com <pholden at davtv.com> wrote:
>> > Quoting ian glendinning <psybertron at gmail.com>:
>> >
>> >
>> > > Platt, survival of the fittest has nothing to do with "ruthless
>> > > control". Fitness is about best quality of "fit" with environmental
>> > > opportunities, ruthlessly defeating your opponents (directly or in
>> > > control of resources) is only one aspect in only some cases. Fitness
>> > > is about fitting, not the power of being fit.
>> >
>> > >From Charles Darwin: "In the survival of favoured individuals and 
>> > >races,
>> during
>> > the constantly-recurring struggle for existence, we see a powerful and
>> ever-acting
>> > form of selection."
>> >
>> > "Struggle" sounds like using "power" to me. "Struggle" also suggests 
>> > action in
>> > an attempt to ruthlessly control a situation to assure a positive 
>> > outcome, by
>> > whatever means available. Do you have evidence that evolution operates
>> otherwise?
>> >
>> > Thanks.
>> > Platt
>
>
>
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