[MD] subject/object: pragmatism

[David M]

what produces love?

DM

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <craigerb at comcast.net>
To: <moq_discuss at lists.moqtalk.org>
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 4:41 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] subject/object: pragmatism


> [Ham, reconctructed]
>>1) If a particle is [not] a figment of your mind, it must come into
>> existence.
>>2) If it exists in your mind, then you must have come into
>> existence in order to possess a mind.
>>3) A particle is either a figment of your mind or is not.
>> 4) :. In either case, whatever exists has to be and being (at least in 
>> the finite sense that we experience
>> it) cannot arise from nothing.
>> That's the logic of 'ex nihilo, nihil fit".
>
> If that's the logic, it is invalid.  The valid conclusion would be
> 4') A particle (that exists) must come into existence.
> 4'), however, is not at issue.
>
> [Ham]
>> (a) Everything in existence comes into being at some point in time. (b) 
>> If it all starts with a Big Bang,
> > something had to produce the bang.
>
> (a) = 4') &, again, is not at issue.  (b), however, is self-contradictory. 
> If it all starts with a Big Bang, then there can't be something that 
> produces the bang: otherwise, it would start with that something.
> What are the possibilities:
> I) Everything that exists has existed since the beginning of time or was 
> created from something that did.
> II) Some things come into existence after others but are not created from 
> them.
> III) Some things are created, but not from other things.
>
> [Craig, previously]
>> But what if you have something that you can't find what it was created 
>> from?  Will you take that as a
>>  counter-example or will you insist that there must be a source as yet 
>> undiscovered (& on what basis)?
>
> [Ham]
>> What is your "counter-example"?
>
> Something that you can't find what it was created from?
> Craig
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