[MD] Dawkins a Materialist (is watching?)

[Micah]

Ham,

Objectivism is not Ayn Rand, and Ayn Rand is not Objectivism. This is not
religion, where an authority figure is the system, such as christianity and
the like - and by the way religion is an example of social quality, nothing
more. Objectivism is a logical system, based on the fact that reality is
objective, not primary. An Objectivist Club (Ayn Rand Institute) is an
oxymoron. Objectively, reality cannot be shown to exist independent of
humans. To say reality exists without humans is an assumption, which is not
objective.

"Nothing can be shown to exist independent of humans" is an objective
statement. It is fact.

Micah


-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On Behalf Of Ham Priday
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 11:42 AM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] Dawkins a Materialist (is watching?)



Hi Micah --

In your 'first nugget' on Objectivism, you say:

> As you can clearly see Rand states that existence
> is objective, not primary.

No, I don't clearly see this.  Ayn Rand was quite emphatic in defining
existence as primary.  This is implicit in her choice of the title
'Objectivism' to name her philosophy.  Here, for example, are a couple of
statements clearly supporting the ideology that reality is objective, and
therefore primary:

Summarizing her philosophy in 1962, the author said:

"My philosophy, Objectivism, holds that:
Reality exists as an objective absolute - facts are facts, independent of
man's feelings, wishes, hopes or fears."

Again, in a précis on the basic principles of Objectivism, the Ayn Rand
Institute provides the following outline of her Metaphysics:

"Reality, the external world, exists independent of man's consciousness,
independent of any observer's knowledge, beliefs, feelings, desires or
fears.  This means that A is A, that facts are facts, that things are what
they are-and that the task of man's consciousness is to perceive reality,
not to create or invent it."  Thus Objectivism rejects any belief in the
supernatural-and any claim that individuals or groups create their own
reality."
    --
http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=objectivism_essentials

What this says to me is that the existence of the external world is an
indisputable fact, and that consciousness (i.e., the intellect) has no
active part in constructing it.

How can you turn these statements around to support your thesis that
"nothing can be shown to exist independent of humans"?

Curiously,
Ham


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