[MD] Dawkins a Materialist (is watching?)

[Micah]

Ron,

I see where you, Case, and Platt misinterpret me. "Objective reality"
doesn't mean reality is primary. Objective has a different meaning than
primary. Not only do they have different meanings, they're spelled
different. Now there is no "objective" way to show reality is primary, we
would need to be present to prove it is primary, which is a contradiction.

Reality is objective - not in my head, it however is not primary...I could
go on or you could read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance by Robert
Pirsig. I am just restating what he said at his breakdown or breakthrough on
"quality". You know Plato, Aristotle and the horns of a dilemma.

A forum on Pirsig filled with people that don't understand Pirsig. Cool!

Micah




----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On Behalf Of Ron Kulp
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 3:12 PM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] Dawkins a Materialist (is watching?)


[Ham]to Micah]
For example, on 10/10 you stated (again to Ian) that "...nothing can be
>shown to exist independent of humans.  Man is the measure of all
things."
>On the same day you said to Arlo:
>> People have died, and reality still exists. But when the last human
>> dies, reality cannot be shown to exist.

[Micah]to Platt}

So now let me understand, you say "it is true that the inference of
independent existence cannot be demonstrated", so you agree that nothing
can be shown to exist independent of  humans? Meaning the statement is
fact regardless of your faith? Isn't that objectivity?

On what day, of your everyday experience, have you experienced reality
to exist independent of humans? Everyday I wake up, my right ankle hurts
for an instant, I believe it is a angel pinching me for good luck -
should I doubt that philosophically, after all it's what I believe and
you have stated I shouldn't doubt my beliefs.

You have too much clutter, and that clutter is your faith. And you won't
let go...so there you are.

[x],
It would seem that Micah is the measure of all things, if reality
independent of humans can not be proven, Reality outside of Micah can
not be proven either and if he believes this, he IS the measure of his
universe.

[Micah]
Complete misinterpretation of what I said, it's bad enough when I put my
foot in my mouth - it's worse when you put your foot in my mouth.

[x]
Well,
I got the idea you were making a case for objectivism to support
"humans gain objective knowledge from perception by
Measurement". But you seemed to overlook the fact that "Objectivism
holds that there is a mind-independent reality".
Other than that I'm not sure where you were going with Rand.

you are well known for your stance On the idea, "man is the measure of
all things" and " nothing can be shown
to exist independent of  humans", it has become your mantra. You stated
it was objective "fact". If
this is not the case and I am Misinterpreting your argument then I
sincerely would like to understand.
 I did'nt put my foot in your mouth so much as I pointed to the tree
where you appearantly hung yourself.
No matter how you spin it, you can not make a stand on " nothing can be
shown to exist independent of  humans".
It just doesent seem to work .








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