[MD] Mystics and Brains

[David M]

Hi Case/Ian/Platt

I think the reality of mathematical 'space',
where mathematicians explore mathematical
'possibilities' and make 'discoveries' is an interesting
one. This realm seems to be real and non-actual.
In this way it shows that human beings are able
to access at least one realm that transcends the
actual. Perhaps the case with anything possible
and non-actual, if we are able to imagine it.

Thoughts?

David M



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "ian glendinning" <psybertron at gmail.com>
To: <moq_discuss at moqtalk.org>
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 5:45 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] Mystics and Brains


> Case, Platt,
>
> Explaining how the brain "has" an idea is one thing.
> Explaining what an idea "is" is a another.
>
> The second pint first. In the Platonic sense, yes the idea (the
> concept it contains) may well be transcendent as you quote Penrose
> saying. Though I have to say the idea that and idea contains something
> like an independent concept is probably highly SOMist in the first
> place. The very human concept of a concept is the human recognition of
> a (useful, recurring) pattern in "something" - a pattern of value
> somewhere we MoQists would say, surely ?
>
> The first question is more a matter of how consciousness emerges in a
> brain (or similar device). I don't believe that's necessarily hard to
> do, provided no-one is looking for something elusive like "proof".
> Would I be wasting my time Platt, if I attempted an explanation ?
>
> Ian
>
> On 1/16/07, Case <Case at ispots.com> wrote:
>> [Platt]
>> My view is that of Plato's and Penrose's, namely, that important ideas 
>> are
>> transcendent entities. To quote Penrose, "Recall my proposal that
>> consciousness, in essence, is the 'seeing' of a necessary truth; and that 
>> it
>> may represent some actual contact with Plato's world of ideal 
>> mathematical
>> concepts." From "The Emperor's New Mind," pp. 445-46
>>
>> [Case]
>> As I have mentioned several times it seems to me that Plato's project was 
>> in
>> some sense to add meaning to Euclid and Pythagoras. His realm of the 
>> ideal
>> is clearly a reference to the "perfection" of mathematical constructions
>> like points planes and solids as compared to their imperfect 
>> manifestations
>> in the world of shadow.
>>
>> I think Penrose is pointing toward this as well. But I thought in the 
>> book
>> you mention Penrose was mainly arguing against those who seek to model
>> organic sentient behavior in terms of computer processing. I am not sure 
>> how
>> either of these allows for the conclusion that consciousness can exist
>> outside of natural processes.
>>
>> [Platt]
>> We disagree about an event happening once not being a pattern. The place
>> kick that beat Chargers not only had a pattern, but one of considerable
>> value to the Patriots. Science, as I've repeatedly stated, has little to 
>> say
>> about such non-repetitive events and consequently misses a lot of life's
>> meaning and magic. But, that's an ax to grind on another day perhaps.
>>
>> [Case]
>> A place kick in a football games follows not only the pattern of rules 
>> set
>> forth by Newtonian physic but the rules laid down by the National 
>> Football
>> Leagues. Any value a particular kick might have to Patriot fans can also 
>> be
>> specified in terms of social attitudes and a host of other factors all of
>> which lend themselves nicely to study by various branches of science.
>>
>> In the sense you are using it here any event is a one time event.
>>
>> [Platt]
>> I agree we murder to dissect by analysis. But, explaining beauty has a 
>> long
>> history in philosophy. It comes under the heading of aesthetics. Whether
>> Rage Against the Machine (who?) qualifies is another matter altogether.
>>
>> [Case]
>> Perhaps you could offer an example of a theory of esthetics that does not
>> murder by dissection. Or one that enhances our understanding of beauty in
>> ways that science does not. As for Rage, I date myself a bit since they
>> broke up several years ago. In any event I doubt if you would like them 
>> any
>> more than I care for pretentious piano pieces. But there's esthetics for
>> you.
>>
>>
>>
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