[MD] Mystics and Brains

[pholden at davtv.com]

Quoting Case <Case at iSpots.com>:

> [Platt]
> My view is that of Plato's and Penrose's, namely, that important ideas are
> transcendent entities. To quote Penrose, "Recall my proposal that
> consciousness, in essence, is the 'seeing' of a necessary truth; and that it
> may represent some actual contact with Plato's world of ideal mathematical
> concepts." From "The Emperor's New Mind," pp. 445-46
> 
> [Case]
> As I have mentioned several times it seems to me that Plato's project was in
> some sense to add meaning to Euclid and Pythagoras. His realm of the ideal
> is clearly a reference to the "perfection" of mathematical constructions
> like points planes and solids as compared to their imperfect manifestations
> in the world of shadow.
> 
> I think Penrose is pointing toward this as well. But I thought in the book
> you mention Penrose was mainly arguing against those who seek to model
> organic sentient behavior in terms of computer processing. I am not sure how
> either of these allows for the conclusion that consciousness can exist
> outside of natural processes.

I would say that if perfect mathematical constructions can lie outside of natural
processes, so can consciousness. But, I could be wrong.


> [Platt]
> We disagree about an event happening once not being a pattern. The place
> kick that beat Chargers not only had a pattern, but one of considerable
> value to the Patriots. Science, as I've repeatedly stated, has little to say
> about such non-repetitive events and consequently misses a lot of life's
> meaning and magic. But, that's an ax to grind on another day perhaps.
> 
> [Case]
> A place kick in a football games follows not only the pattern of rules set
> forth by Newtonian physic but the rules laid down by the National Football
> Leagues. Any value a particular kick might have to Patriot fans can also be
> specified in terms of social attitudes and a host of other factors all of
> which lend themselves nicely to study by various branches of science.

Except there are a thousand and one variables in the event including the exact
position of the ball when kicked, it's angle, the force of the foot meeting
the ball, the wind direction and speed, the effect of crowd noise, the position
of players, etc., etc. Science can't deal very well with such hypercomplex events,
which is why the social sciences are so dismal.
 
> In the sense you are using it here any event is a one time event.

Yes, that's pretty much life, reality and truth -- illustrating the constraint
of science in only being able to deal with isolated repeatable events that
leave a lot out including the bias of the scientist performing and observing the
experiment herself.

> [Platt]
> I agree we murder to dissect by analysis. But, explaining beauty has a long
> history in philosophy. It comes under the heading of aesthetics. Whether
> Rage Against the Machine (who?) qualifies is another matter altogether.
> 
> [Case]
> Perhaps you could offer an example of a theory of esthetics that does not
> murder by dissection. Or one that enhances our understanding of beauty in
> ways that science does not. As for Rage, I date myself a bit since they
> broke up several years ago. In any event I doubt if you would like them any
> more than I care for pretentious piano pieces. But there's esthetics for
> you.
 
You got me about aesthetic philosophical theory. Rather I look to direct experience
of beauteous forms to explain beauty in ways science does not, such as the
following poem by William Wordsworth from which we got the phrase "murder to 
dissect."

 UP! up! my Friend, and quit your books;
          Or surely you'll grow double:
          Up! up! my Friend, and clear your looks;
          Why all this toil and trouble?

          The sun, above the mountain's head,
          A freshening lustre mellow
          Through all the long green fields has spread,
          His first sweet evening yellow.

          Books! 'tis a dull and endless strife:
          Come, hear the woodland linnet,                             
          How sweet his music! on my life,
          There's more of wisdom in it.

          And hark! how blithe the throstle sings!
          He, too, is no mean preacher:
          Come forth into the light of things,
          Let Nature be your teacher.

          She has a world of ready wealth,
          Our minds and hearts to bless--
          Spontaneous wisdom breathed by health,
          Truth breathed by cheerfulness.                             

          One impulse from a vernal wood
          May teach you more of man,
          Of moral evil and of good,
          Than all the sages can.

          Sweet is the lore which Nature brings;
          Our meddling intellect
          Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:--
          We murder to dissect.

          Enough of Science and of Art;
          Close up those barren leaves;                               
          Come forth, and bring with you a heart
          That watches and receives.


 But then again, I'm an incurable romantic.                                             








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