[MD] Mystics and Brains

[Case]

[Platt]
Correct me if I'm wrong, you seem to be saying nothing can exist outside of
man's (or a sufficiently complex robot's) mental processes. In other words,
you favor philosophic Idealism. Otherwise, if physical processes can exist
independently of man, why not relationships we call ideas?  

[Case]
No, I said ideas like mathematics can't exist without someone to think them.
I assume that mathematical relationships expressed in nature would continue
to exist until someone else came along able to think them. Man arises from
the physical processes, thinking arises from man.

[Platt]
The "systems" you speak of are a far cry from a singular event in a football
game whose interconnections to the universe within that moment are infinite.
Anyway, complexity theory is even younger than the social sciences and has a
long way to go to even accurately predict the weather in Miami a week from
now. Finally as I've claimed before, randomness is science's way of saying,
"We don't know and probably never will."  And as I've suggested before, I
think it significant that some experiments have shown human intention can
affect what is otherwise thought to be random events. Such inexplicable
phenomena as the placebo effect suggests there's more going on than meets
the scientist's eye.

[Case]
A football game is a complex set of interactions. While each interaction
follows its own set of deterministic rules the combination of possible
outcomes is in principle impossible to predict. We know that certain
interactions are more likely to influence the final outcome of a field goal
than others. The rate of photosynthesis of the grass on the field is likely
to be less relevant than whether the kicker's shoes are tied.

It is not that they are saying "We don't know and probably never will." They
are saying it is in principle impossible to know until it happens.

The outcome of the kick is simple. It either goes in or not. The web of
causality surrounding the event of the kick is as you say rich with
interconnections. The weather is a vastly more complex system with
instability at every point. As a result the span of predictability of
weather forecast is inherently limited.

Complexity theory may be very new but it is an outgrowth of and has been
applied to mathematics, physics, biology and may others.