[MD] Terry Eagleton on Dawkin's God Delusion

[skutvik at online.no]

Hi Case

On 20 Jan. you wrote:

> [Case]
> The leaves of the oak also move away from their roots and then fall
> back to them so I must me missing your point. If you are saying that
> Christendom has wandered far from the social level I will need some
> convincing. Jesus was a historical figure rooted in Jewish tradition.
> I think the strongest evidence suggests that he was actively opposed
> to the Hellenized Roman culture being inflicted on his people.

I don't remember your attitude regarding the MOQ, you were less 
than convinced the last time we met and - right - no intelligent 
person can be convinced by the current "intellectual level", but I 
talk from the SOL interpretation.   

Jesus as an "intellectual" is one of its fallouts. There is nothing 
that indicates that the Roman occupation was his grievance, 
rather the Mosaic Law that was (still is) the essence of the old 
Semitic tradition - the Social reality in moqspeak. And the 
Romans didn't bother much with him until the Jewish high priests 
handed him over and the mob demanded his execution.   

> The mythological Christ was a third century synthesis of Greek and
> Jewish ideals. The difficult of forging this synthesis was eased by
> the support of the Roman emperor seeking to end the bickering of
> factions in what was declared to be the state religion.

Here we actually agree, Jesus the deity weren't much different 
from the "father", the said revolt totally gone only the miraculous 
part remained. The New Testament's budding intellectual values: 
Human rights, woman emancipation and the general individual's 
worth were also forgotten and not resumed until the 
Enlightenment.         

> If you are suggesting that the forced feeding of Greek intellectualism
> into the Jewish ethics moved Christians away from their social roots I
> believe many Jews in the modern world would agree. And there is
> imagery in the New Testament about the grafting of new vines on older
> root stock that acknowledges this.

Right, Christendom became a mix of Greek intellectualism and 
Jewish ethics. Humankind got a (spiritual) soul unknown to the 
the social era. However, I would have liked to the know what you 
see as examples of the said intellectualism.    

> [Case]
> Jewish and Christian history documents the evolution of the "chosen
> people's" understanding of the nature of God and their relationship to
> him. From the polytheistic tribes at the foot of Mount Sinai to 
the 
> movement of the Holy Spirit in modern megachurches believers have
> understood and expressed their understanding in different ways at
> different times. 

Agree.

> [Case]
> Church history is a study in the tension between Ardor and Order
> between saints and priests. This tension is seen from Exodus to today.
> Pirsig comments on this.

The "saint/priest tension is correct, but that one is universal, the 
Semitic religions are haunted by a different and worse tension, 
namely the believer/infidel or fundamental/secular and some 
more names for this conflict. This has nothing to the do with their 
respective saints or mystics.

> I try not to miss an opportunity to point out that renouncing desire
> and surrender to God's will are functionally equivalent so it would be
> fair to say that East and West approach the same place by wandering
> different paths.

The saints renouncing desire and/or ascites striving for mystical 
experience, their purpose is not to surrender - at least not  to a 
God's will expressed as dictates about food and dress and prayer 
positions. Nor do they feel the need for converting "heathens" or 
kill an apostate. This is the Semitic "tradition" unknown in the 
East.  

IMO

Bo